3-Mar-2011 12:32:06-PST,1440;000000000001
Mail-From: ATTILA created at 3-Mar-2011 12:32:06
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 12:32:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Attila <ATTILA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: What's up?
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14581405842.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14581460010.7.ATTILA@TWENEX.ORG>
I read my mail here with regularity, and have a couple hacking
projects in mind if I ever manage to free up some time. I mainly use
this email address to read slashdot... just waiting for that "what
operating system do you use to read slashdot" poll to come around
again.
SMJ gave me the source to an ancient IRC client for TOPS-20 in
assembler and I had been screwing around with it a bit; I'm more than
a little familiar with IRC, so it's a good way to play around and
get visible results quickly. I haven't really had time to do
much with it, other than get it to compile and run and tidy up
a bit.
If you are really interested in the TOPS-20/PDP-10 experience, I would
eschew C and use MIDAS or MACRO-20... some medium that truly exposes
the beauty under the hood. C on the PDP-10 is a strange and messed-up
beast, although I can almost see it as an extreme portability testing
environment... The NetBSD people do have a port to the PDP-10, which
is actually targetted at the same emulator that SMJ runs here (KLH10).
I'm not paying attention to my session here constantly, but if I'm
around feel free to SEND to me.
Pax, --S
-------
4-Mar-2011 09:44:01-PST,598;000000000011
Mail-From: ATTILA created at 4-Mar-2011 09:44:01
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 09:44:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Attila <ATTILA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Docs
To: papa@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14581691553.7.ATTILA@TWENEX.ORG>
I have a fairly large cache of mostly PDF docs relevant to
hacking on the 20, mostly snatched from the usual places
(trailing-edge, bitsavers, etc.). Sadly, my net connection
sucks so uploading the whole thing is not an option, but I'll
see what I can do about putting the most useful ones somewhere.
That file from Columbia is one of the best, though.
Pax, --S
-------
7-Mar-2011 05:48:39-PST,532;000000000001
Mail-From: ATTILA created at 7-Mar-2011 05:48:38
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 05:48:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Attila <ATTILA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: Docs
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14582276496.8.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14582435137.7.ATTILA@TWENEX.ORG>
Re MACRO vs MIDAS most of the CUSPs and stuff from DEC/DECUS are in MACRO,
so you should at least be familiar with it, but MIDAS is more pleasant to
use... at least that's how I remember it, it's been a while since I did
anything significant.
Pax, --S
-------
8-Mar-2011 13:44:34-PST,1938;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:42:13 -0500
To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>, tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM
From: P&G Wexelblat <wex@changing-leaves.com>
Subject: Re: New member greeting
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David Meyer wrote:
>Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!
>
>Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about the OS
>that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer world today.
>Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying to figure
>out what TOPS-20 is about.
>
>Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees are
>still kicking around.
>
>Long Live TOPS-20!
>
>--
>David Meyer
>Takarazuka, Japan
>papa@twenex.org
>-------
Hi,
I really have nothing to do with these systems these days, but I was at BBN when TENEX was written, (I made a tiny contribution to the ARPAnet), and did TOPS-10 OS work whilst at DEC ('70's and 80's). A teensie bit of my tops-10 IPCF code found its way into TOPS-20, and I contributed to "the Compatibility Package" while at BBN (Tenex/Tops-20)
But a piece of me still has me subscribing to this list :)
Welcome
--
--
...wex (10-3610) (PMW on the monitor listings)
9-Mar-2011 03:31:16-PST,9361;000000000001
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Subject: Re: New member greeting
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM,
P&G Wexelblat <wex@changing-leaves.com>
Message-ID: <OFC55074FE.4D01692B-ON8525784E.003AA373-8525784E.003ED97F@navyfederal.org>
From: Chuck_Perilli@navyfederal.org
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 06:26:30 -0500
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Hi David,
My experience with TOPS-20 was at Air Force Systems Command at Andrews =
AFB
in the late 70's and early 80's. We were mostly involved with developi=
ng
interfaces between the ARPAnet and existing systems we had like CDC Cyb=
er
70s. We were also testing a new protocol called TCP/IP. The bulk of t=
hat
work was actually done on PDP-11s using RSX-11M. However we had a 2040=
that was our administrative workhorse (documentation, email, FTP etc.).=
My extent of programming on TOPS-20 was a Macro program to convert docu=
ment
files into tapes for printing on our Xerox 1200 page printer. The Xero=
x
1200 was an offline device that read 9 track EBCDIC tapes. Basically I=
had
to convert ASCII to EBCDIC and create "banner" pages with big block
letters, Some of the "big guns" on this forum could probably write tha=
t
program in their sleep. However, it gave me a lot of respect for the p=
ower
of TOPS-20 and the ease of programming even at the assembly language le=
vel.
Somewhere I think I still have the tee shirt I picked up at a DECUS
conference that says "JSYS Saves".
I now have a TOPS-20 system up and running on a Suse Linux 11 box. Fir=
st
time I fired it up it was like seeing an old friend I had not seen in
decades. I laughed when I found the distro even included John Laird's
"Haunt" text adventure we once wasted hours of time playing. Until I
retire in 3 years, I now work for Navy Federal Credit Union (who has
several branches in Japan but I've never been there other than Narita
Airport to change planes).
Welcome aboard!
-Chuck Perilli, W3HDN (been a ham operator since 1959)
-Waldorf, MD
From: P&G Wexelblat <wex@changing-leaves.com>
To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>, <tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM>=
Date: 03/08/2011 06:09 PM
Subject: Re: New member greeting
At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David Meyer wrote:
>Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!
>
>Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about the=
OS
>that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer world
today.
>Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying to
figure
>out what TOPS-20 is about.
>
>Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees are=
>still kicking around.
>
>Long Live TOPS-20!
>
>--
>David Meyer
>Takarazuka, Japan
>papa@twenex.org
>-------
Hi,
I really have nothing to do with these systems these days, but I was at=
BBN
when TENEX was written, (I made a tiny contribution to the ARPAnet), an=
d
did TOPS-10 OS work whilst at DEC ('70's and 80's). A teensie bit of m=
y
tops-10 IPCF code found its way into TOPS-20, and I contributed to "the=
Compatibility Package" while at BBN (Tenex/Tops-20)
But a piece of me still has me subscribing to this list :)
Welcome
--
--
...wex (10-3610) (PMW on the monitor listings)
=
--1__=0ABBF2DDDFA925E38f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF2DDDFA925E3
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body>
<p>Hi David,<br>
<br>
My experience with TOPS-20 was at Air Force Systems Command at Andrews =
AFB in the late 70's and early 80's. We were mostly involved with deve=
loping interfaces between the ARPAnet and existing systems we had like =
CDC Cyber 70s. We were also testing a new protocol called TCP/IP. The=
bulk of that work was actually done on PDP-11s using RSX-11M. However=
we had a 2040 that was our administrative workhorse (documentation, em=
ail, FTP etc.). My extent of programming on TOPS-20 was a Macro progr=
am to convert document files into tapes for printing on our Xerox 1200 =
page printer. The Xerox 1200 was an offline device that read 9 track E=
BCDIC tapes. Basically I had to convert ASCII to EBCDIC and create &qu=
ot;banner" pages with big block letters, Some of the "big gu=
ns" on this forum could probably write that program in their sleep=
. However, it gave me a lot of respect for the power of TOPS-20 and th=
e ease of programming even at the assembly language level. Somewhere I=
think I still have the tee shirt I picked up at a DECUS conference tha=
t says "JSYS Saves". <br>
<br>
I now have a TOPS-20 system up and running on a Suse Linux 11 box. Fir=
st time I fired it up it was like seeing an old friend I had not seen i=
n decades. I laughed when I found the distro even included John Laird'=
s "Haunt" text adventure we once wasted hours of time playing=
. Until I retire in 3 years, I now work for Navy Federal Credit Union =
(who has several branches in Japan but I've never been there other than=
Narita Airport to change planes).<br>
<br>
Welcome aboard!<br>
<br>
-Chuck Perilli, W3HDN (been a ham operator since 1959)<br>
-Waldorf, MD<br>
<br>
<br>
<img width=3D"16" height=3D"16" src=3D"cid:1__=3D0ABBF2DDDFA925E38f9e8a=
93@navyfederal.org" border=3D"0" alt=3D"Inactive hide details for P&=
;G Wexelblat ---03/08/2011 06:09:42 PM---At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David=
Meyer wrote: >Greetings, TOP"><font color=3D"#424282">P&G Wexel=
blat ---03/08/2011 06:09:42 PM---At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David Meyer w=
rote: >Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!</font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D"2" color=3D"#5F5F5F">From: </font><font size=3D"2">P&=
G Wexelblat <wex@changing-leaves.com></font><br>
<font size=3D"2" color=3D"#5F5F5F">To: </font><font size=3D"2">David Me=
yer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>, <tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM></font><=
br>
<font size=3D"2" color=3D"#5F5F5F">Date: </font><font size=3D"2">03/08/=
2011 06:09 PM</font><br>
<font size=3D"2" color=3D"#5F5F5F">Subject: </font><font size=3D"2">Re:=
New member greeting</font><br>
<hr width=3D"100%" size=3D"2" align=3D"left" noshade style=3D"color:#80=
91A5; "><br>
<br>
<br>
<tt>At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David Meyer wrote:<br>
>Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!<br>
><br>
>Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about =
the OS<br>
>that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer worl=
d today.<br>
>Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying t=
o figure<br>
>out what TOPS-20 is about.<br>
><br>
>Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees =
are<br>
>still kicking around.<br>
><br>
>Long Live TOPS-20!<br>
><br>
>--<br>
>David Meyer<br>
>Takarazuka, Japan<br>
>papa@twenex.org<br>
>-------<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I really have nothing to do with these systems these days, but I was at=
BBN when TENEX was written, (I made a tiny contribution to the ARPAnet=
), and did TOPS-10 OS work whilst at DEC ('70's and 80's). A teen=
sie bit of my tops-10 IPCF code found its way into TOPS-20, and I contr=
ibuted to "the Compatibility Package" while at BBN (Ten=
ex/Tops-20)<br>
<br>
But a piece of me still has me subscribing to this list :)<br>
<br>
Welcome<br>
-- <br>
--<br>
...wex (10-3610) (PMW on the monitor listin=
gs)<br>
<br>
<br>
</tt><br>
</body></html>=
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8-Dec-2011 10:29:29-PST,1990;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:08:18 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Forth on TOPS-20?
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14654834152.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:20:05 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <mrc@Lingling.Panda.COM>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Forth on TOPS-20?
ReSent-Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1112081020050.936@hsinghsing.panda.com>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
I'm looking for a "new" implementation of Forth for TOPS-20.
Here on twenex.org, we have an implementation called FORTH-10 that
comes with MIDAS assembler source and no other documentation that I
can find. It's not ANS Forth-compliant (not a big deal) and buggy (a
big deal for assembler-challenged me).
I've found MACRO source for FIG-FORTH[1], but it's written to run on
RT-11 or RSX-11M, and doesn't assemble out-of-the-box on TOPS-20.
I've also found source for Caltech Forth[2]. It goes through the
assembler without errors, but I can't get it to link.
(I understand neither FIG-Forth nor Caltech Forth is ANS-compliant
either, but that both served as references when the standard was being
formulated.)
I am going to try to teach myself MACRO, and maybe MIDAS, too, but in
the mean time any tips on Forth for TOPS-20 would be appreciated.
[1]: http://www.forth.org/library/eforth_SOC/eforth_SOC_source/figforth/PDP114TH.ZIP
[2]: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-04/01/43,50361/forth.mac
-------
8-Dec-2011 10:37:57-PST,1563;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:28:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
In-Reply-To: <14654834152.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1112081021380.935@hsinghsing.panda.com>
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On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, David Meyer wrote:
> I've found MACRO source for FIG-FORTH[1], but it's written to run on
> RT-11 or RSX-11M, and doesn't assemble out-of-the-box on TOPS-20.
As you discovered, that will not help you. The PDP-11 has a completely
different instruction set from the PDP-10 and a different word size
(16-bit instead of 36-bit).
> I've also found source for Caltech Forth[2]. It goes through the
> assembler without errors, but I can't get it to link.
I took a quick look at it. It has to be lunk with the Fortran library.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to play with it further, but try adding
SYS:FORLIB.REL to your load command.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
8-Dec-2011 11:26:13-PST,1452;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:29:42 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14654838046.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:17:16 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <mrc@Lingling.Panda.COM>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
ReSent-Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1112081117160.936@hsinghsing.panda.com>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
file, like a Unix shell script? Similar to how commands in LOGIN.CMD,
COMMAND.CMD and BATCH.CMD get run automatically, but initiated by the user.
Also like the batch facility, except output goes straight to the user's
monitor.
I don't need variable substitution or flow control, just executing one
or more "pre-canned" commands in sequence.
Thanks.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
8-Dec-2011 11:29:49-PST,1312;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
In-Reply-To: <14654838046.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, David Meyer wrote:
> Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
> file, like a Unix shell script?
Yes. It's the DO command. The command files are similar to batch files,
but with an extension of .MIC instead of .CTL. CTRL/A aborts a DO in
progress.
You can also extend the EXEC command language using the PCL facility.
Reads <DOCUMENTATION>PCL.TXT.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
8-Dec-2011 11:33:20-PST,847;000000000001
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
From: Andy Valencia <ajv-519-685-8092@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:29:42 PST."
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:25:36 -0800 (PST)
--------
[David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG> writes:]
> Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
> file, like a Unix shell script?
Isn't it just "@<file>"?
Andy
8-Dec-2011 11:38:19-PST,1808;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
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On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, David Meyer wrote:
> Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
> file, like a Unix shell script?
Yes. It's the DO command. The command files are similar to batch files,
but with an extension of .MIC instead of .CTL. CTRL/A aborts a DO in
progress.
You can also extend the EXEC command language using the PCL facility.
Reads <DOCUMENTATION>PCL.TXT.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
8-Dec-2011 11:47:29-PST,2318;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:29:33 -0500
From: Pat Farrell <pfarrell@pfarrell.com>
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To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
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On 12/8/11 1:29 PM, David Meyer wrote:
> Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
> file, like a Unix shell script? Similar to how commands in LOGIN.CMD,
> COMMAND.CMD and BATCH.CMD get run automatically, but initiated by the user.
> Also like the batch facility, except output goes straight to the user's
> monitor.
>
I think I remember that the "take" command did that.
Also there was PCL for exec, I think CMU started it. Programmable
Command Language. vintage 83?
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/
8-Dec-2011 11:55:27-PST,1857;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:39:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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To: Pat Farrell <pfarrell@pfarrell.com>
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Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
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On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, Pat Farrell wrote:
> I think I remember that the "take" command did that.
TAKE is like a .login or .profile file - it is commands for the EXEC but
can't send input to a program.
DO can send into to a program as well as the EXEC.
> Also there was PCL for exec, I think CMU started it. Programmable
> Command Language. vintage 83?
PCL is to add commands to the EXEC using a scripting language.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
8-Dec-2011 13:05:45-PST,2460;000000000001
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Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <westfw@mac.com>
In-reply-to: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1112081137450.935@hsinghsing.panda.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:55:48 -0800
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On Dec 8, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> TAKE is like a .login or .profile file - it is commands for the EXEC but can't send input to a program.
TAKE is like the login.cmd files Dave asked about. It only accepts EXEC commands, and remember that the tops20 exec doesn't support much in the way of conditional execution, parameters, or etc (in contrast to most unix shells or dos .BAT files.) (generally uses .CMD files, I think.)
> DO can send into to a program as well as the EXEC.
IIRC, "DO" is supposed to provide almost the same functionality as batch files, with very similar syntax. (generally uses .MIC files.)
> PCL is to add commands to the EXEC using a scripting language.
PCL is more like TCL; while it's designed to write interactive commands and is intimately integrated with the exec, PCL programs look more like programs and less like just a list of exec commands. (Generally uses .PCL files.)
BillW
8-Dec-2011 13:12:00-PST,3098;000000000001
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Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <westfw@mac.com>
In-reply-to: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1112081137450.935@hsinghsing.panda.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:55:48 -0800
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On Dec 8, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> TAKE is like a .login or .profile file - it is commands for the EXEC but can't send input to a program.
TAKE is like the login.cmd files Dave asked about. It only accepts EXEC commands, and remember that the tops20 exec doesn't support much in the way of conditional execution, parameters, or etc (in contrast to most unix shells or dos .BAT files.) (generally uses .CMD files, I think.)
> DO can send into to a program as well as the EXEC.
IIRC, "DO" is supposed to provide almost the same functionality as batch files, with very similar syntax. (generally uses .MIC files.)
> PCL is to add commands to the EXEC using a scripting language.
PCL is more like TCL; while it's designed to write interactive commands and is intimately integrated with the exec, PCL programs look more like programs and less like just a list of exec commands. (Generally uses .PCL files.)
BillW
8-Dec-2011 14:41:49-PST,1892;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
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I tried linking forth.mac with sys:forlib/search
It left one undefined global, FLT.2.
I tried linking with the forlib from fortran v6.
No undefined symbols.
For your information, FLT.2 contains the following,
per DDT:
flt.2/ FLTR 2,2
FLT.2+1/ POPJ 17,
I haven't tried running it.
Ralph
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Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
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I tried linking forth.mac with sys:forlib/search
It left one undefined global, FLT.2.
I tried linking with the forlib from fortran v6.
No undefined symbols.
For your information, FLT.2 contains the following,
per DDT:
flt.2/ FLTR 2,2
FLT.2+1/ POPJ 17,
I haven't tried running it.
Ralph
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8-Dec-2011 17:01:36-PST,1442;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 15:32:41 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
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> I tried linking forth.mac with sys:forlib/search
> It left one undefined global, FLT.2.
I tried this. I got the same error, but it also produced an .EXE file. The executable runs and starts a Forth interpreter prompt, but very few Forth words are defined. I will try to figure out how to load FORSYS.DAT that comes with the source. (LOAD is NOT defined out-of-the-box!)
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
From: Andy Valencia <ajv-519-685-8092@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:32:41 PST."
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 16:55:56 -0800 (PST)
--------
[David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG> writes:]
> I tried this. I got the same error, but it also produced an .EXE file. The
> executable runs and starts a Forth interpreter prompt, but very few Forth
> words are defined. I will try to figure out how to load FORSYS.DAT that
> comes with the source. (LOAD is NOT defined out-of-the-box!)
Maybe obvious, but remember that old Forths have everything in upper case,
and demand that you type it that way. If it doesn't have "WORDS", it might
have "VLIST".
Good luck!
Andy
8-Dec-2011 18:20:48-PST,2323;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <westfw@mac.com>
In-reply-to: <14654893203.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 18:10:54 -0800
Message-id: <EDEA2321-D109-48E9-A8A0-8C3EB9757C51@mac.com>
References: <14654893203.9.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
On Dec 8, 2011, at 3:32 PM, David Meyer wrote:
> I will try to figure out how to load FORSYS.DAT that comes with the source.
Good luck. Forth is one of those particularly byte-oriented languages.
There should be no shortage of larger Forth word sets written "mostly" in some minimal subset of forth itself (possibly not in source form), out on the net somewhere. (www.forth.org ?)
(for instance, here's a definition for backslash from AMForth (for Atmel AVR.) It's nominally in AVR assembler, but actually produces a pre-compiled set of threaded primitives:
; ( -- ) Compiler
; R( -- )
; everything up to the end of the current line is a comment
VE_BACKSLASH:
.dw $0001
.db "\",0
.dw VE_HEAD
.set VE_HEAD = VE_BACKSLASH
XT_BACKSLASH:
.dw DO_COLON
PFA_BACKSLASH:
.dw XT_SOURCE
.dw XT_SWAP
.dw XT_DROP
.dw XT_G_IN
.dw XT_STORE
.dw XT_EXIT
It looks like most of the CLI/Parser/"compiler" is written that way.)
BillW
8-Dec-2011 20:16:07-PST,1283;000000000011
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Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 23:08:20 -0500
From: John Wilson <wilson@dbit.com>
Message-Id: <201112090408.pB948KUd005670@dbit.dbit.com>
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
This list makes me paranoid: I can't tell whether it just doesn't echo me
copies of my own posts, or whether they're being intentionally delayed for
many hours, and/or filtered outright. What I *thought* I replied was:
I wrote most of a FORTH for TOPS-20 in 1985-86, on a guest account on MIT-OZ.
It's written in heavily commented MIDAS, needs no libraries, and if it
would mean someone would actually *use* it, I'd be very interested in
jumping back in and fleshing it out to full FORTH-83. If you're interested
in playing with it, it's forth.mid in pub/pdp10/tops20 on ftp.dbit.com.
John Wilson (JOHNW)
D Bit
19-Dec-2011 10:02:47-PST,1402;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 07:36:02 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
To: wilson@dbit.com, tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Reply-To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
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Wow! That's cool. Assembled and linked as-is on twenex.org. In spite
of being incomplete, it seems less buggy than the installed FORTH-10.
I'm just learning Forth myself, but if you'd like to complete
"OZ-Forth", I'd certainly be willing to help test it here.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:38:21 -0700 (MST)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <beebe@math.utah.edu>
To: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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Subject: DEC-20 day forgotten?
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Today is Dec-20 2011; this list usually carries a birthday greeting
for the DEC-20. Maybe everyone but me forgot?
For us at the University of Utah Mathematics Department, October 31
2011 marked the 21st anniversary of the retirement of our DEC-20/60.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org -
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To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <beebe@math.utah.edu>
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Subject: Re: DEC-20 day forgotten?
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Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> Today is Dec-20 2011; this list usually carries a birthday greeting
> for the DEC-20. Maybe everyone but me forgot?
>
> For us at the University of Utah Mathematics Department, October 31
> 2011 marked the 21st anniversary of the retirement of our DEC-20/60.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
> - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
forgot to say this at home, but did remind everyone at work!1
So thank you for the reminder!!
Happy DEC 20 Day!
--
We'll see said the zen master
20-Dec-2011 20:27:07-PST,4321;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:10:59 -0700 (MST)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <beebe@math.utah.edu>
To: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu
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Subject: Some TOPS-nn nostalgia
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I had occasion today to consult the Unix manual pages for tcsh (one of
several Unix command shells), and came across this section (probably
known to most of you, but just in case, it won't hurt to reproduce it
here):
THE T IN TCSH
In 1964, DEC produced the PDP-6. The PDP-10 was a later re-implementa-
tion. It was re-christened the DECsystem-10 in 1970 or so when DEC
brought out the second model, the KI10.
TENEX was created at Bolt, Beranek & Newman (a Cambridge, Massachusetts
think tank) in 1972 as an experiment in demand-paged virtual memory
operating systems. They built a new pager for the DEC PDP-10 and cre-
ated the OS to go with it. It was extremely successful in academia.
In 1975, DEC brought out a new model of the PDP-10, the KL10; they
intended to have only a version of TENEX, which they had licensed from
BBN, for the new box. They called their version TOPS-20 (their capi-
talization is trademarked). A lot of TOPS-10 users (`The OPerating
System for PDP-10') objected; thus DEC found themselves supporting two
incompatible systems on the same hardware--but then there were 6 on the
PDP-11!
TENEX, and TOPS-20 to version 3, had command completion via a user-
code-level subroutine library called ULTCMD. With version 3, DEC moved
all that capability and more into the monitor (`kernel' for you Unix
types), accessed by the COMND% JSYS (`Jump to SYStem' instruction, the
supervisor call mechanism [are my IBM roots also showing?]).
The creator of tcsh was impressed by this feature and several others of
TENEX and TOPS-20, and created a version of csh which mimicked them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21-Dec-2011 07:59:43-PST,1898;000000000001
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Subject: Re: DEC-20 day forgotten?
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:49:05 -800
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> Today is Dec-20 2011; this list usually carries a birthday greeting
> for the DEC-20. Maybe everyone but me forgot?
Not forgotten at all! I didn't post to this list, but I posted to alt.folklore.computers and alt.sys.pdp10.
Happy DEC-20,
Patrick
21-Dec-2011 08:05:10-PST,4232;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Some TOPS-nn nostalgia
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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:35:20 -0500
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Now if only there was a UNIX "shell" that replaced the =
hard-to-figure-out command names (awk, cat, grep, ls, etc) with command =
verbs, a la TOPS-20 and VMS DCL, and translated all the curt command =
options into real words too...
j
On 20 Dec 2011, at 21:10, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> I had occasion today to consult the Unix manual pages for tcsh (one of
> several Unix command shells), and came across this section (probably
> known to most of you, but just in case, it won't hurt to reproduce it
> here):
>=20
> THE T IN TCSH
> In 1964, DEC produced the PDP-6. The PDP-10 was a later =
re-implementa-
> tion. It was re-christened the DECsystem-10 in 1970 or so =
when DEC
> brought out the second model, the KI10.
>=20
> TENEX was created at Bolt, Beranek & Newman (a Cambridge, =
Massachusetts
> think tank) in 1972 as an experiment in demand-paged virtual =
memory
> operating systems. They built a new pager for the DEC PDP-10 =
and cre-
> ated the OS to go with it. It was extremely successful in =
academia.
>=20
> In 1975, DEC brought out a new model of the PDP-10, the =
KL10; they
> intended to have only a version of TENEX, which they had =
licensed from
> BBN, for the new box. They called their version TOPS-20 (their =
capi-
> talization is trademarked). A lot of TOPS-10 users (`The =
OPerating
> System for PDP-10') objected; thus DEC found themselves =
supporting two
> incompatible systems on the same hardware--but then there were 6 =
on the
> PDP-11!
>=20
> TENEX, and TOPS-20 to version 3, had command completion via a =
user-
> code-level subroutine library called ULTCMD. With version 3, =
DEC moved
> all that capability and more into the monitor (`kernel' for =
you Unix
> types), accessed by the COMND% JSYS (`Jump to SYStem' =
instruction, the
> supervisor call mechanism [are my IBM roots also showing?]).
>=20
> The creator of tcsh was impressed by this feature and several =
others of
> TENEX and TOPS-20, and created a version of csh which mimicked =
them.
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 =
-
> - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 =
-
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: =
beebe@math.utah.edu -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org =
beebe@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: =
http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>=20
21-Dec-2011 10:19:21-PST,257;000000000011
Mail-From: SMJ created at 21-Dec-2011 10:19:21
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:19:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Jones <SMJ@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: httpd should be running again
To: papa@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14658244035.15.SMJ@TWENEX.ORG>
enjoy
-------
21-Dec-2011 18:22:55-PST,5223;000000000001
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From: "Rich Braun" <richb@pioneer.ci.net>
To: "Tops-20 Wizards" <tops-20@lingling.panda.com>
Subject: Christmas!
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:15:24 -0500
Importance: Normal
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ReSent-Subject: Christmas!
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Last night I was rooting through some files and found a little treasure f=
rom
my 36-bit days. I have to re-type the whole thing, you'll see why. It's=
my
Christmas greetings (one of those annoying letters you find in greeting c=
ards,
which usually cite graduations, births and surgical operations) from a ye=
ar
near & dear to those of us here on the list. Mine's a little different. =
;-)
Enjoy!
Hi __________:
Well, another year has come to an end, and it's so close to the end that =
I'm
having a hard time getting these cards mailed out. So I thought I'd have=
my
friendly local DEC-20 computer do it for me... after all, isn't that what
computers are for? (besides keeping track of how many speeding tickets y=
ou
have or figuring how much to overcharge you on your phone bill.)
This year has been a big change for me. First thing I did was to free my=
self
from all the horrors of college existence and take off for the "real worl=
d",
which is why you haven't seen too much of me at the University of Delawar=
e.=20
And you ask, when are you getting your degree? Well, maybe 1984...maybe
1985...sigh, it will take a while. But its been a lot of fun living up i=
n the
Boston area and working in a big engineering project. Lately I've been t=
aking
courses one by one at MIT to finish my degree; I need 5 more to get an EE
degree from Delaware. Oh, if you are ever wondering just what obscure th=
ing
it is I do for work, read Tracy Kidder's "Soul of a New Machine" and pict=
ure
me as one of the Microkids. Unlike theirs, though, ours is taking well o=
ver 4
years to produce.
Boston is too cold. Maybe I should move to California. But, at least th=
e
winters are "real" here, not like they were back in Virginia. With a new
starter & battery, my new (well, different) car should be the first to la=
st
all the way through a winter. (knock on plastic...)
I got my first genuine DEC turkey this year. (DEC is my company, the tur=
key
was my boss...uh, no, actually it was a real turkey). We had a good "x-m=
as"
meal with it this past weekend at my house, one of the few things that wi=
ll
get 4 of the 5 people into the place all at once. The people I live with=
are
all pretty cool, and slightly unusual in their own ways. Jeff (an MIT gr=
ad,
believe it or not) spends his time too stoned to notice much; RMS is alwa=
ys
asleep except from midnite to 8; Josh likes VAX computers; and Bill is a
Harvard grad student (need anything more be said?). I got alarmed when B=
ill
called me "the most normal person in the house". One good thing about le=
aving
fulltime school is that I have been able to live in one place for almost =
a
year.
Oh well, here's to hacking; goofing off; taking yet more courses; pursuit=
of
happiness (& cute people!); eating peanut butter, pickles, and root beer;
having Vaseline, Black light, Twinkies, & Beer (VBTB) parties; and all th=
e
other strangeness of 1982, all still in sight for 1983. Oh, and down wit=
h
double nickels (55); Sunday closing laws; Massachusetts politics; Reagan'=
s
college budget cuts; and economic recessions...
Hope you had a good year in '82, and that this coming year turns out even
better! See ya sometime; I have a big house so there's space for you in
Cambridge whenever you want to visit.
affectionately,
rich
21-Dec-2011 20:19:11-PST,2199;000000000001
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From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day delayed
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From: Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: tops-20@panda.com
Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day!
Message-Id: <20111220200656.C7B942425D@panix5.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:06:56 -0500 (EST)
...from chilly Chicagoland!
And a joyous Winter Solstice festival of choice to all!
Rich Alderson
21-Dec-2011 20:58:39-PST,5287;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Christmas!
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:31:26 -800
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ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
That was fun! What was the engineering project -- Jupiter?
-- Patrick
> Last night I was rooting through some files and found a little treasure f=
> rom
> my 36-bit days. I have to re-type the whole thing, you'll see why. It's=
> my
> Christmas greetings (one of those annoying letters you find in greeting c=
> ards,
> which usually cite graduations, births and surgical operations) from a ye=
> ar
> near & dear to those of us here on the list. Mine's a little different. =
> ;-)
> Enjoy!
>
> Hi __________:
>
> Well, another year has come to an end, and it's so close to the end that =
> I'm
> having a hard time getting these cards mailed out. So I thought I'd have=
> my
> friendly local DEC-20 computer do it for me... after all, isn't that what
> computers are for? (besides keeping track of how many speeding tickets y=
> ou
> have or figuring how much to overcharge you on your phone bill.)
>
> This year has been a big change for me. First thing I did was to free my=
> self
> from all the horrors of college existence and take off for the "real worl=
> d",
> which is why you haven't seen too much of me at the University of Delawar=
> e.=20
> And you ask, when are you getting your degree? Well, maybe 1984...maybe
> 1985...sigh, it will take a while. But its been a lot of fun living up i=
> n the
> Boston area and working in a big engineering project. Lately I've been t=
> aking
> courses one by one at MIT to finish my degree; I need 5 more to get an EE
> degree from Delaware. Oh, if you are ever wondering just what obscure th=
> ing
> it is I do for work, read Tracy Kidder's "Soul of a New Machine" and pict=
> ure
> me as one of the Microkids. Unlike theirs, though, ours is taking well o=
> ver 4
> years to produce.
>
> Boston is too cold. Maybe I should move to California. But, at least th=
> e
> winters are "real" here, not like they were back in Virginia. With a new
> starter & battery, my new (well, different) car should be the first to la=
> st
> all the way through a winter. (knock on plastic...)
>
> I got my first genuine DEC turkey this year. (DEC is my company, the tur=
> key
> was my boss...uh, no, actually it was a real turkey). We had a good "x-m=
> as"
> meal with it this past weekend at my house, one of the few things that wi=
> ll
> get 4 of the 5 people into the place all at once. The people I live with=
> are
> all pretty cool, and slightly unusual in their own ways. Jeff (an MIT gr=
> ad,
> believe it or not) spends his time too stoned to notice much; RMS is alwa=
> ys
> asleep except from midnite to 8; Josh likes VAX computers; and Bill is a
> Harvard grad student (need anything more be said?). I got alarmed when B=
> ill
> called me "the most normal person in the house". One good thing about le=
> aving
> fulltime school is that I have been able to live in one place for almost =
> a
> year.
>
> Oh well, here's to hacking; goofing off; taking yet more courses; pursuit=
> of
> happiness (& cute people!); eating peanut butter, pickles, and root beer;
> having Vaseline, Black light, Twinkies, & Beer (VBTB) parties; and all th=
> e
> other strangeness of 1982, all still in sight for 1983. Oh, and down wit=
> h
> double nickels (55); Sunday closing laws; Massachusetts politics; Reagan'=
> s
> college budget cuts; and economic recessions...
>
> Hope you had a good year in '82, and that this coming year turns out even
> better! See ya sometime; I have a big house so there's space for you in
> Cambridge whenever you want to visit.
>
> affectionately,
>
> rich
>
>
>
>
>
24-Dec-2011 08:18:39-PST,1252;000000000001
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Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 03:12:55 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Simple Things
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14658952838.16.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
ReSent-Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:12:41 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <mrc@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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ReSent-Subject: Simple Things
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There are a couple of seemingly simple tasks that I haven't been able
to find TOPS-20 commands for. Is there a way to do them, or do I need
to hack something up myself?
1. Type file contents with the line number prepended to each line.
2. List directory file names in multiple columns.
-------
25-Dec-2011 09:25:04-PST,1688;000000000001
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Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 09:02:44 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Editor Manuals
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14659278664.15.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
ReSent-Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 09:16:51 -0800 (PST)
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ReSent-Subject: Editor Manuals
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I was wondering about the manuals for the three editors mentioned in the
TOPS-20 User's Guide: EDIT, TV, and EDT-20.
Although there is some terse online help for EDIT and EDT-20, and TV shares
a lot of commands with other TECO implementations, there was apparently a
full manual for each of these and other documents. These documents are
listed in numerous document lists (they're part of TOPS-20 Notebooks 3 and
23), but I haven't been able to find the manuals themselves.
Has anyone scanned these documents and made them available online, or are
the only surviving copies buried beneath heaps of molding 30-year-old print-
outs?
I suppose the copyright on all these former DEC documents is now owned by
HP.
-------
26-Dec-2011 17:47:52-PST,2416;000000000001
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com>
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
CC: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: Simple Things
References: <14658952838.16.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
In-Reply-To: <14658952838.16.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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On 12/24/2011 6:12 AM, David Meyer wrote:
> There are a couple of seemingly simple tasks that I haven't been able
> to find TOPS-20 commands for. Is there a way to do them, or do I need
> to hack something up myself?
>
> 1. Type file contents with the line number prepended to each line.
From the guest account on Twenex.Org:
"
@r pip
*tty:=math.c/o
00001 #include <stdio.h>
00002 #include <math.h>
00003
00004 main() {
00005
00006 int r;
00007 float z,x;
00008
00009 for(r=0;r<60;r++) {
00010 z=r*3.14/180*6;
00011 printf("sin(%f)=%f cos(%f)=%f\n", z, sin(z), z,
cos(z));
00012 }
00013
00014 }*^C
@
"
> 2. List directory file names in multiple columns.
With the worst case of 39 character filenames and 39 character
extensions, maybe the specter of a single column of filespecs per line
made it not worth implementing?
If you are confined to directories full of 6.3 filespecs, get a copy of
Tops-10 DIRECT.EXE and try DIRECT/F/W?
Hope this helps,
/AHM
--
Alan Howard Martin AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com
26-Dec-2011 20:08:15-PST,3045;000000000011
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
CC: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: Simple Things
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On 12/24/2011 6:12 AM, David Meyer wrote:
> There are a couple of seemingly simple tasks that I haven't been able
> to find TOPS-20 commands for. Is there a way to do them, or do I need
> to hack something up myself?
>
> 1. Type file contents with the line number prepended to each line.
From the guest account on Twenex.Org:
"
@r pip
*tty:=math.c/o
00001 #include <stdio.h>
00002 #include <math.h>
00003
00004 main() {
00005
00006 int r;
00007 float z,x;
00008
00009 for(r=0;r<60;r++) {
00010 z=r*3.14/180*6;
00011 printf("sin(%f)=%f cos(%f)=%f\n", z, sin(z), z,
cos(z));
00012 }
00013
00014 }*^C
@
"
> 2. List directory file names in multiple columns.
With the worst case of 39 character filenames and 39 character
extensions, maybe the specter of a single column of filespecs per line
made it not worth implementing?
If you are confined to directories full of 6.3 filespecs, get a copy of
Tops-10 DIRECT.EXE and try DIRECT/F/W?
Hope this helps,
/AHM
--
Alan Howard Martin AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com
28-Dec-2011 12:49:50-PST,1622;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:27:58 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: Simple Things
To: AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com
cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
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Thanks, Alan.
I find it satisfyingly ironic that the solution to problems on the
venerable TOPS-20 operating system is to dip into the well of even
older technology. PIP predates even TOPS-10, doesn't it?
Regarding printing a file with line numbers, I also found an
alternative solution on my own. If I don't mind making the line
numbers a permanent part of the file content, TOPS-20 standard
EDIT.EXE automatically prepends lines with line numbers, as was
necessary with BASIC-10 and other language source files.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
28-Dec-2011 12:51:25-PST,2414;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Simple Things
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From: Ken Rossman <wkrossman@gmail.com>
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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PIP harks back all the way to RT11, I believe (and RSXnn)...
KR
On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:27 PM, David Meyer wrote:
> Thanks, Alan.
>
> I find it satisfyingly ironic that the solution to problems on the
> venerable TOPS-20 operating system is to dip into the well of even
> older technology. PIP predates even TOPS-10, doesn't it?
>
> Regarding printing a file with line numbers, I also found an
> alternative solution on my own. If I don't mind making the line
> numbers a permanent part of the file content, TOPS-20 standard
> EDIT.EXE automatically prepends lines with line numbers, as was
> necessary with BASIC-10 and other language source files.
>
> --
> David Meyer
> Takarazuka, Japan
> papa@twenex.org
28-Dec-2011 12:56:23-PST,1343;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 00:33:44 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: User Multitasking Tutorial
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
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I've created a short tutorial on how to use multiple programs at the
same time from the same login (human multitasking) on TOPS-20:
http://twenex.org/~papa/multiprg.txt
Not very advanced, but something I wanted to be able to do while
exploring Twenex.org.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
28-Dec-2011 13:21:39-PST,1980;000000000001
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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The SOS editor -- Son of Stopgap -- was an earlier TOPS-10 editor that =
used line-numbered files. In case anyone forgets, the line numbers are =
stored in an interesting way -- 5 numeric characters, aligned on a word =
boundary, with Bit 0 lit.
As to PIP -- it was original to the PDP-6, which means it came with the =
OS that later became TOPS-10. According to the Hacker's Dictionary, =
during development it was called ATLATL -- 'AnyThing, Lord, to AnyThing, =
Lord'.
PIP later was re-implemented on OS/8, RSX-11, RSTS/E, and CP/M.
j
On 27 Dec 2011, at 20:27, David Meyer wrote:
> Thanks, Alan.
>=20
> I find it satisfyingly ironic that the solution to problems on the
> venerable TOPS-20 operating system is to dip into the well of even
> older technology. PIP predates even TOPS-10, doesn't it?
>=20
> Regarding printing a file with line numbers, I also found an
> alternative solution on my own. If I don't mind making the line
> numbers a permanent part of the file content, TOPS-20 standard
> EDIT.EXE automatically prepends lines with line numbers, as was
> necessary with BASIC-10 and other language source files.
>=20
> --
> David Meyer
> Takarazuka, Japan
> papa@twenex.org
> -------
>=20
28-Dec-2011 13:35:05-PST,2168;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Simple Things
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <westfw@mac.com>
In-reply-to: <14658952838.16.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:26:59 -0800
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To: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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On Dec 24, 2011, at 3:12 AM, David Meyer wrote:
> 1. Type file contents with the line number prepended to each line.
The internal line numbers, or generated line numbers? The tops filesystems had an interesting system for allowing text files to include "invisible" line numbers (for use by SOS/etc.) IIRC, if the low bit of a 36bit word was set on a text file, that word was assumed to contain a line number (still text, I think) rather than actual "file contents."
I recall accidentally getting files with both line numbers and numbers at the beginning of each line. So there were typically commands to print line numbers, create or resequence line numbers, or ignore the line numbers. At least in editors and such.
PIP is ancient, and a generic DEC program used on many different OSes.
BillW
28-Dec-2011 13:55:39-PST,3057;000000000001
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PIP harks back all the way to RT11, I believe (and RSXnn)...
KR
On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:27 PM, David Meyer wrote:
> Thanks, Alan.
>
> I find it satisfyingly ironic that the solution to problems on the
> venerable TOPS-20 operating system is to dip into the well of even
> older technology. PIP predates even TOPS-10, doesn't it?
>
> Regarding printing a file with line numbers, I also found an
> alternative solution on my own. If I don't mind making the line
> numbers a permanent part of the file content, TOPS-20 standard
> EDIT.EXE automatically prepends lines with line numbers, as was
> necessary with BASIC-10 and other language source files.
>
> --
> David Meyer
> Takarazuka, Japan
> papa@twenex.org
28-Dec-2011 14:00:10-PST,2604;000000000001
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The SOS editor -- Son of Stopgap -- was an earlier TOPS-10 editor that =
used line-numbered files. In case anyone forgets, the line numbers are =
stored in an interesting way -- 5 numeric characters, aligned on a word =
boundary, with Bit 0 lit.
As to PIP -- it was original to the PDP-6, which means it came with the =
OS that later became TOPS-10. According to the Hacker's Dictionary, =
during development it was called ATLATL -- 'AnyThing, Lord, to AnyThing, =
Lord'.
PIP later was re-implemented on OS/8, RSX-11, RSTS/E, and CP/M.
j
On 27 Dec 2011, at 20:27, David Meyer wrote:
> Thanks, Alan.
>=20
> I find it satisfyingly ironic that the solution to problems on the
> venerable TOPS-20 operating system is to dip into the well of even
> older technology. PIP predates even TOPS-10, doesn't it?
>=20
> Regarding printing a file with line numbers, I also found an
> alternative solution on my own. If I don't mind making the line
> numbers a permanent part of the file content, TOPS-20 standard
> EDIT.EXE automatically prepends lines with line numbers, as was
> necessary with BASIC-10 and other language source files.
>=20
> --
> David Meyer
> Takarazuka, Japan
> papa@twenex.org
> -------
>=20
28-Dec-2011 14:05:12-PST,2805;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Simple Things
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <westfw@mac.com>
In-reply-to: <14658952838.16.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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On Dec 24, 2011, at 3:12 AM, David Meyer wrote:
> 1. Type file contents with the line number prepended to each line.
The internal line numbers, or generated line numbers? The tops filesystems had an interesting system for allowing text files to include "invisible" line numbers (for use by SOS/etc.) IIRC, if the low bit of a 36bit word was set on a text file, that word was assumed to contain a line number (still text, I think) rather than actual "file contents."
I recall accidentally getting files with both line numbers and numbers at the beginning of each line. So there were typically commands to print line numbers, create or resequence line numbers, or ignore the line numbers. At least in editors and such.
PIP is ancient, and a generic DEC program used on many different OSes.
BillW
28-Dec-2011 15:35:43-PST,2330;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 18:22:53 -0500
From: Rob Austein <sra@hactrn.net>
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: Simple Things
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Yep, SOS (rebranded as "EDIT-20") embedded 5 digit line numbers as a
36-bit word containing 5 digits in 7-bit ASCII and the low-order bit
(bit 35) lit. Because of this, SOS also padded end of line with null
characters up to the next word boundary. There was an OPENF% flag to
strip out all this silliness so that other programs wouldn't have to
deal with it, but that wasn't much help to programs which used PMAP%
instead BIN% and SIN%.
28-Dec-2011 16:17:37-PST,4590;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:02:35 -0500
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com>
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To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: Simple Things
References: <14659894925.15.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG> <D5A642A7-D2BE-4C97-8C1D-6A118BE1A2A1@mac.com>
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On 12/28/2011 4:13 PM, John Francini wrote:
...
> The SOS editor -- Son of Stopgap -- was an earlier TOPS-10 editor that
> used line-numbered files. ...
Earliest SOS copyright year: 1973
(http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-x130a-sb/01/sos.mac.html)
Earliest LINED copyright year: 1970
(http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-x130a-sb/01/lined.mac.html)
LINED is a (slight?) rewrite of the DECtape Editor (EDITOR);
that shipped on the PDP-6.
(http://www.tmk.com/ftp/humor/tops_history.txt)
TECO got line sequence number support after V21A, because the /GENLSN
and /SUPLSN switches have change bars in the V23 May-72 DEC-10-ETEE-D
_Text Editor and Corrector Program Programmer's Reference Manual_ - the
5th section of the 1972 PDP-10 User's Handbook (Green Phone Book).
(http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS10/1972_PDP-10_Users_Handbook/05_tecoReference.pdf)
In particular, those switches are not described in Book 4, _Editing the
Source Program_, section _Text Editor and Corrector (TECO)_ of the 1970
_PDP-10 Reference Handbook_ ()1969).
(http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/1970_PDP-10_Ref/1970PDP10Ref_Part4.pdf)
> ... In case anyone forgets, the line numbers are stored in an
> interesting way -- 5 numeric characters, aligned on a word boundary,
> with Bit 0 lit.
$7T in FILDDT displays 1B35 as an atsign.
Dig the nuance on p. 8 (p. 366) of the Jul-72 DEC-10-ULNDA-A-D,
_decsystem10 LINED Line Editor for Disk Files_.
SOS also had a standard for ``page marks'' - CR, CR, FF, NUL, NUL, LSB.
(http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-x130a-sb/01/sosug.mem.html, p. 20).
The User's Guide lies; it's CR, FF, NUL, NUL, NUL - see PGMKW2:
(http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-x130a-sb/01/sos.mac.html)
=====
On 12/28/2011 4:26 PM, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
...
> ... The tops filesystems had an interesting system for allowing text
> files to include "invisible" line numbers (for use by SOS/etc.)
> IIRC, if the low bit of a 36bit word was set on a text file, that
> word was assumed to contain a line number (still text, I think)
> rather than actual "file contents."
Software that parsed the contents of files might well be taught to skip
line sequence numbers as soon as it had a critical mass of users that
used a line editor. However, the LSNs were right there in the file
along with the rest of the text.
You could always tell when a BASIC user first tried using SOS (or PIP)
to resequence their program - from the unearthly howl upon discovering
that their GOTO's, etc. didn't get renumbered...
/AHM/HEH
--
Alan Howard Martin AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com
28-Dec-2011 16:22:40-PST,1627;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:14:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com>
cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Re: Simple Things
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On Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Alan H. Martin wrote:
> Earliest SOS copyright year: 1973
SOS came from SAIL prior to being given to (and copyrighted by) DEC.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
28-Dec-2011 19:04:42-PST,1391;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:21:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Subject: more on SOS
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SOS is in the SAILDART archive from its inception on November 5, 1972,
with a file date of October 27, 1972.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
28-Dec-2011 20:05:04-PST,2548;000000000001
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From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com>
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Subject: Re: Simple Things
References: <14659894925.15.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG> <D5A642A7-D2BE-4C97-8C1D-6A118BE1A2A1@mac.com> <4EFBAE1B.1050508@RCN.Com> <alpine.OSX.2.00.1112281611250.1233@hsinghsing.panda.com>
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On 12/28/2011 7:14 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Alan H. Martin wrote:
>> Earliest SOS copyright year: 1973
>
> SOS came from SAIL prior to being given to (and copyrighted by) DEC.
Oh, I'd forgotten that latter-day jargon file entry.
http://www.saildart.org/prog/DOC/html/000569
(At least part of what Mark has subsequently referred to).
From:
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.sys.pdp10/browse_thread/thread/dbcaf8fea5930f08
/AHM/THX
--
Alan Howard Martin AMartin.MA.UltraNet@RCN.Com
31-Dec-2011 13:26:39-PST,1369;000000000001
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Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 07:52:54 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Happy New Year 2012
To: bboard@TWENEX.ORG, tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14660838814.7.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
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The Japan time zone has rotated into A.D. 2012!
May God bless you all this year, and give you success in whatever way
you define it.
Here's hoping in 2012 knowledge and appreciation spreads for TOPS-20
and all the venerable systems of illustrious hacking that were the
foundries of today's global IT infrastructure.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
6-Jan-2012 16:03:13-PST,1413;000000000011
Mail-From: TELEXL created at 6-Jan-2012 16:03:13
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:03:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Lex Landa <TELEXL@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: MM, SYSTAT slow?
To: papa@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14662500937.7.TELEXL@TWENEX.ORG>
Hello David,
Thank you for the hints regarding scripts on here - I didn't know about
TAKE and PCL. Also, you mentioned the slowness of MM and SYSTAT. I have also
experienced this, and most recently, a few minutes ago, when I started MAIL.
With SYSTAT, it's as if the system is doing a reverse DNS lookup on the user's
IP address. The other delays might be related to this, or maybe a storage
problem. A few weeks ago, I had trouble with quota - something like 'space
exhausted', or similar.
I expect that some of this is due to my unfamiliarity (is there such a word?)
with TWENEX.
In spite of the slowness, it's still fun to login here and try an OS that's
refreshlingly different from the UNIX (okay, 'tis actually Linux) that I
regularly use. I am a bit worried that I am finding it so hard to work out
how to do simple things, though - but I am getting on a bit.
Maybe one day, someone will digitise that 'orange wall' of manuals.
Trying to read your 'multiple programs' document, I got an error.
@type PS:<PAPA.HTML>MULTIPRG.TXT
?Read protection violation for: <PAPA.HTML>MULTIPRG.TXT.33
Them old file protection bits again!
Cheers,
Lex.
-------
12-Jan-2012 15:42:39-PST,1842;000000000011
Mail-From: TELEXL created at 12-Jan-2012 15:42:39
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:42:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Lex Landa <TELEXL@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: MM, SYSTAT slow?
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14662614080.7.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14664070058.8.TELEXL@TWENEX.ORG>
Hello David,
Many thanks for your helpful reply, which has a lot of hints that I'll try
to pay attention to. I've decided that I need some sort of 'hint sheet' to
remind me that I am using TWENEX, since I have trouble remembering all of the
commands. Maybe if I devoted a few hours to TWENEX, then moved on to something
else - but there are so many distractions.
I'll have a look at the document links that you posted. I am currently typing
this on an Amiga 1200 and it doesn't have a working web browser, but I can use
Napsaterm (a VT102/Tektronix emulator) to contact one of my other computers,
then use Lynx to browse. This old computer has become a central console, since
it has such good terminal emulators and is the only one that emulated th
application numeric keypad that many editors (EDT, TV and so on) require.
When I tried to view MAGIC.TXT via http://www.twenex.org/~papa/, Lynx kept
directing me back to the main SDF.org page, so I'll try to view it directly.
I think that some changes have been going on with users' web space - I recall
seeing a notice about it, some time back.
For me, the fascination with TWENEX goes back to a time when the Internet was
a strange, distant thing that only scientific and military establishments had
access to. I still have a lot of old printouts from sessions to distant
computers, conducted using a Tandy 102 computer in a number of musty telephone
boxes. If I've mentioned this, my apologies, as my memory often returns to it.
I'll look for those docs now.
Cheers,
Lex.
-------
25-Mar-2012 12:30:57-PST,826;000000000001
Mail-From: JSOL created at 25-Mar-2012 12:30:57
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 12:30:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <JSOL@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: MM, SYSTAT Slow?
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
cc: bboard@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14658927077.15.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14683171672.10.JSOL@TWENEX.ORG>
SYSTAT, MM, and telnet connections are slow because they use the
GTDOM% jsys which asks the monitor to find the name of sites from
the host number of the host involved.
GTDOM% hangs for 60 seconds, then either fails, which uses the
host number or succeeds giving the host name.
If the host name is available before the 60 seconds then it will
succeed before then.
If SYSTAT doesn't get the host name in the "Foreign host" area,
it does the host number instead.
Hope this helps.
--jsol
-------
19-Dec-2013 12:29:59-PST,776;000000000001
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From: MINION@TWENEX.ORG
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Subject: TWENEX.ORG wiki account
URL: http://wiki.twenex.org
USER: papa
PASS: JvoLixS3G+g
22-Dec-2013 12:25:50-PST,1680;000000000011
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 22-Dec-2013 12:25:50
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 12:25:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: PDP-10 ASSEMBLY
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14850156468.13.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO, PLEASE EXCUSE THE ALL CAPS, BUT I ASSOCIATE PDP-10 HARDWARE WITH ALL CAPS. I WAS A PDP-10 USER IN COLLEGE IN THE MID 1980'S. WE USED A DEC-10 WITH TOPS-10, FORTRAN, PASCAL, AND MACRO 10. I LEARNED SYSTEMS PROGRAMMING IN MACRO 10,
BUT DID NOT USE IT ANY FURTHER AFTER WE SWITCHED TO A VAX. I JUST WANTED
TO SAY THAT THE ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE OF THE PDP-10 FAMILY IS ONE OF THE MOST
PLEASANT TO PROGRAM IN. IT IS EXTREMELY REGULAR AND EXPLICITLY DESIGNED
FOR DIRECT PROGRAMMING BY HUMANS (NOT COMPILER GENERATED CODE). I BECAME
AWARE OF TWENEX.ORG A FEW YEARS AGO. IT HAS BEEN A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO
RECONNECT WITH THE PAST. I HAVE WRITTEN AN INTERACTIVE DOODLE PROGRAM
COMPLETELY IN MACRO HERE ON TWENEX.ORG. IT ASSUMES A VT100 OR ANSI
TERMINAL. IN SHORT, MACRO IS REALLY REALLY FUN... BY THE WAY, THER
ARE SEVERAL EXCELLENT BOOKS AVAILABLE ON MACRO 10. NOWADAYS THEY ARE
VERY INEXPENSIVE (WHO WOULD WANT TO LEARN AN ANCIENT ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE...)
SOFTWARE FOR THESE ANCIENT SYSTEMS SHOULD BE WRITTEN IN ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE !
SO WAS THE "WISDOM" OF THE ANCIENTS... THEY ALSO HAD ISSUES WITH BLOATWARE
IN THOSE DAYS ! I AM ALSO A GREAT FAN OF THE PDP-8. THIS IS POSSIBLY
THE SYSTEM THAT ACCOMPLISHED THE MOST WITH THE LEAST. ONE OF MY HOBBIES
SINCE COLLEGE HAS BEEN WRITTING PDP-8 SIMULATORS. I NOTICED ON TWENEX.ORG
THERE IS ONE, SEEMS LIKE IT CAME THROUGH DECUS... BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN
WORKED ON SINCE 1969 !!!
-------
23-Dec-2013 09:47:35-PST,1302;000000000001
Mail-From: PAPA created at 23-Dec-2013 09:47:35
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:47:35 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: PDP-10 ASSEMBLY
To: VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG
cc: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14850156468.13.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14850389803.12.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Dear Cedric,
Thanks for your e-mail. It's great to hear from someone else with an interest
in Twenex.
It sounds like we belong to the same generation. I, too, had access to a PDP-10
based system in college in the mid-1980s. However, I failed to take advantage
of my opportunity and its only recently within the last few years that I've
become seriously interested in learning how to program these beautiful beasts.
I have also found true exactly what you observe, that regardless of the variety
of high level languages available here, the only way to do certain system-
related tasks (and the bar for deciding what's a system task is very low in the
PDP-10 world), is to program in assembly.
The idea of getting into assembly language seemed daunting, but with your words
of encouragement, I may take the dive after all.
Are there any books that you recommend in particular for TOPS-20 assembly
language beginners?
Regards,
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
-------
23-Dec-2013 19:43:55-PST,2717;000000000011
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 23-Dec-2013 19:43:55
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:43:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14850498364.11.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
YES INDEED, THE PDP-6, PDP-10, DECSYSTEM-20 WERE DESIGNED TO BE PROGRAMMED
IN ASSEMBLY BY HUMANS... IN THOSE EARLY DAYS (1960'S) CORE MEMORY (MAGNETIC
CORES, VISIBLE TO THE EYE WITHOUT MAGNIFICATION AND HANDMADE TOO) USED TO
COST SEVERAL DOLLARS PER BYTE !!! BITS IN REGISTERS COST MUCH MORE...
LOGIC IN THE FIRST PDP-10 (KA10) WAS MADE OF INDIVIDUAL TRANSISTORS...
SO A PROGRAM THAT WAS RUNNING WAS USING A REAL ESTATE WORTH MANY THOUSANDS OF
DOLLARS FOR THE DURATION OF EXECUTION. PROGRAMMERS HAD TO BE VERY FRUGAL...
WHEN I STARTED TO USE TWENEX.ORG, I CONSIDERED PROGRAMMING IN C, HOWEVER
WHEN I SAW THE SIZE OF THE COMPILED CODE, I SAID TO MYSELF, NO, THIS IS NOT
HOW THIS MACHINE WAS MEANT TO BE PROGRAMMED. IT WAS MEANT FOR ASSEMBLY...
IF YOU HAVE NEVER USED ASSEMBLY, IT DOES TAKE A DIFFERENT MINDSET FROM
HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGES. IT IS ALSO REQUIRES GREAT PATIENCE IN THE SENSE
THAT EACH LINE DOES VERY LITTLE BY ITSELF - COMPARED TO HIGH LEVEL
LANGUAGES, AND SPECIALLY TO POINT AND CLICK ENVIRONMENTS WHERE A CLICK
CAN INVOKE AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF INSTRUCTIONS. NOW FOR THE REWARDS...
YOU GET TOTAL CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE WITH A GIVEN
PRIVILEDGE LEVEL. THE API IS TRULY UNIVERSAL. IT IS HARD TO WASTE MEMORY
OR CPU CYCLES -- YOU HAVE TO WRITE MORE CODE FOR THIS... IT IS *HARD WORK*
BUT IT IS SO REWARDING... AND IT WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER HIGH LEVEL
LANGUAGE PROGRAMMER BECAUSE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT IS "UNDER THE HOOD."
ALSO, JUST LIKE WITH LANGUAGES, THE FIRST ONE IS THE HARDEST, THE SECOND
IS A LOT EASIER. SO LEARNING A SECOND ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE IS EASIER...
SO WHILE THE PDP-10 IS NOT A MAINSTREAM ARCHITECTURE BY TODAYS STANDARDS,
IT IS SO MUCH MORE REGULAR AND REASONABLE THAN ANYTHING IN USE TODAY. IT
IS A PLEASURE TO PROGRAM DIRECTLY. THE ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE OF TODAYS SYSTEMS
IS NOT MEANT FOR HUMANS (EXCEPT A FEW COMPILER DEVELOPERS).
I LEARNED MACRO FROM THE BOOK BY MICHAEL SINGER, INTRODUCTION TO
DECSYSTEM-10 ASSEMBLER LANGUAGE PROGRAMMING. HOWEVER A MUCH MORE
COMPREHENSIVE BOOK IS INTRODUCTION TO DECSYSTEM-20 ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE
PROGRAMMING BY RALPH E. GORIN. THIS SECOND BOOKS IS BETTER BECAUSE
IT IS SPECIFIC TO THE DECSYSTEM-20. I HAD TO GET USED TO 10/20 DIFFERENCES
WHEN FIRST USING TWENEX. THERE ARE ALSO TONS OF REFERENCE MANUALS ONLINE.
HOPE THIS IS HELPFUL. ENJOY THE MACHINE ! THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR TODAY...
CEDRIC WATSON
MANAGUA, NICARAGUA
-------
24-Dec-2013 09:57:42-PST,809;000000000001
Mail-From: PAPA created at 24-Dec-2013 09:57:42
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:57:42 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE
To: VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG
cc: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14850498364.11.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14850653790.11.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Wow! @VDIR shows that the .EXE file for a MACRO Hello World program is 1/20th
the size of the .EXE for the C program!
You've convinced me. I'm going to bite the bullet and learn assembly language
for hacking on TWENEX.ORG.
I found a copy of Gorin's book for 25 USD, so I snapped it up as a Christmas
present for myself. I also notice Gorin wrote a chapter in the text document
"DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Guide".
Let the good times roll!
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
-------
24-Dec-2013 16:16:54-PST,8018;000000000011
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Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 00:34:55 +0000 (UTC)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Watson <vulcanus@SDF.ORG>
X-X-Sender: vulcanus@iceland.freeshell.org
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Subject: MINICOMPUTERS
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1312242358560.10323@iceland.freeshell.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
HELLO DAVID,
SORRY FOR SENDING THIS EMAIL FROM ANOTHER SYSTEM, BUT I PREPARED IT
OFFLINE AND AM NOT SURE HOW THE TOPS-20 FRONT END PROCESSOR WOULD
REACT TO SO MUCH DATA BEING ENTERED SO FAST...
I JUST WANTED TO MENTION IN ALL DUE FAIRNESS TO THE C COMPILER THE MAIN
REASON CAUSING THE BLOATWARE EFFECT IN HELLO.C IS MOST PROBABLY THE
RUNTIME CODE THAT IS ADDED IN TO THE TRANSLATED C CODE. IN THIS CASE
THE MAIN CULPRIT IS PROBABLY THE PRINTF FUNCTION. PRINTF IS REALLY
A MINI RUNTIME INTERPRETIVE SYSTEM. WHAT IS BEING INTERPRETED IS THE
CONTROL (OR FORMATTING) STRING. NOW IN THE CASE OF HELLO.C THE CONTROL
STRING IS FULLY DETERMINED BEFORE COMPILE TIME. SO ALL THIS INTERPRETIVE
MACHINERY IS NOT NEEDED, BUT COMPILERS OF THIS ERA INCLUDE IT ANYWAY...
I AM NOT SURE WHAT COMPILERS TODAY DO. IF YOU REWRITE HELLO.C WITH
PUTS, FPUTS, OR PUTCHAR, I AM SURE THE EXECUTABLE WILL BE SMALLER. I FOUND
ALL THIS OUT BACK IN THE OLD DAYS WHEN I WAS WRITTING UTILITIES TO
PROVIDE FOR MISSING FUNCTIONALITY IN EARLY VERSIONS OF MS-DOS. ONE HAD
TO BE FRUGAL IN THE DAYS OF 64K MEMORY AND FLOPPY DISK. EVEN MORE SO IN
THE DAYS OF 2K RAM AND CASSETTE TAPE. AND EVEN MORE SO IN THE DAYS OF
EARLY PROGRAMMABLE CALCULATORS...
NOW I THINK THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS IS TO TO PROGRAM IN A MIX OF
ASSEMBLY AND C. THIS WAY ONE CAN OBTAIN 90% OF THE EFFICIENCY OF ASSEMBLY
WITH 90% OF THE PROGRAMMING EASE OF C. ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME (DEEPLY
NESTED LOOPS...) OR REQUIRES FULL ACCESS TO MACHINE FEATURES IS IN
ASSEMBLY -- WRITTEN FOLLOWING C FUNCTION CALLING CONVENTIONS. FROM THE
VIEWPOINT OF C THEY JUST LOOK LIKE OTHER C FUNCTIONS. THIS IS NICE BECAUSE
ONE CAN INITIALLY WRITE THE WHOLE THING IN C AND THEN SELECTIVELY
REPLACE C FUNCTIONS WITH THOSE WRITTEN IN ASSEMBLY. WHEN COMBINED WITH
A GOOD TEST SUITE, THIS CAN BE TESTED TO INSURE THAT THE ASSEMBLY ROUTINES
DO THE SAME THING AS THE C FUNCTIONS THEY ARE REPLACING. THIS FOLLOWS
THE MOTTO: GET IT WORKING CORRECTLY FIRST, THEN WORRY ABOUT SPEED.
CODE EXECUTION PROFILERS HELP A LOT TO DETERMINE WHERE THE "HOT SPOTS"
IN CODE EXECUTION ARE. AS FAR AS CODE SIZE, BEING ABLE TO LOOK (AND
UNDERSTAND) THE ASSEMBLY GENERATED BY THE COMPILER WILL HELP TO
DETERMINE WHICH ARE THE MEMORY "HOGS". AGAIN, UNDERSTANDING ALL THIS
WILL MAKE ONE A BETTER HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGE PROGRAMMER.
I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS WITH SYSTEMS TODAY
IS THAT ALMOST NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE WHOLE SYSTEM FROM BOTTOM TO TOP.
THIS WAS CERTAINLY NOT TRUE FOR EARLY COMPUTERS. THEY WERE DESIGNED,
BUILT, PROGRAMMED, AND USED BY THE SAME PEOPLE. THEY WERE A BRILLIANT
GROUP OF MULTITALENTED PEOPLE WHO CERTAINLY UNDERSTOOD THEIR OWN
CREATION...
TODAY WITH THE MULTITUDE OF LIBRARIES, APPLICATION FRAMEWORKS, ETC.
IT IS NO WONDER FEW PEOPLE REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW COMPUTERS REALLY
WORK...
I HAD THIS EXPERIENCE WITH JAVA. THE LANGUAGE IS NOT BAD AT ALL. IT
RESEMBLES C SOMEWHAT. HOWEVER, ALL THOSE LIBRARIES (CLASSES)
TRANSFORM IT INTO SOMETHING ELSE. AND WORSE STILL, SOMETHING THAT
IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING... ... ...
THAT IS ANOTHER ADVANTAGE OF MACRO-10. IT WILL NEVER CHANGE !!! IT IS
LIKE LATIN. IT IS A DEAD LANGUAGE. IT CANNOT CHANGE BECAUSE ITS SPEAKERS
HAVE "MOVED ON"
BY THE WAY, WOULD YOU KNOW WHO I SHOULD CONTACT ON TWENEX TO MAKE MY
DOODLE PROGRAM AVAILABLE TO OTHER USERS. MY TOPS-20 USER SKILLS ARE
NOT VERY GOOD. WHEN I LAST USED A REAL PDP-10, IT WAS VERY MUCH A
PROGRAMMING ENVIRONMENT. WE FOLLOWED A VERY DRONE-LIKE EDIT (WITH SOS),
COMPILE (OR ASSEMBLE), AND RUN CYCLE. THE IDEA OF USING IT AS A
COMMUNICATIONS MEDIUM, GAME MACHINE, ETC. SIMPLY DID NOT OCCUR TO ME
AT THAT TIME. WE WERE HAVING SO MUCH FUN PROGRAMMING THAT WE HAD
LITTLE TIME FOR ANYTHING ELSE... AH, SWEET MEMORIES OF WAITING
IN LINE TO USE A HARDCOPY TERMINAL AFTER MIDNIGHT... AH, THE
MUSICAL RACKET OF THE LINE PRINTER. OR OF EXCEEDING OUR DISK QUOTA
ALLOCATIONS AND BEGGING THE "HIGH PRIESTS" OF THE SYSTEM (SYSTEM ADMIN)
FOR A FEW BLOCKS MORE. AND BORROWING ONE OF THE PRECIOUS SYSTEM
MANUALS WAS A MAJOR UNDERTAKING ACCOMPANIED BY THE MOST SOLEMN PROMISES
AND IN ANY CASE HAD TO BE IN VIEW OF A HIGH PRIEST. WE WERE I MIGHT
ADD HIGHLY FAVORED SINCE WE WERE ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO VIEW THE GREAT
MACHINE BEHIND THICK GLASS WINDOWS WHILE THE HIGH PRIESTS (OPERATORS)
CARRIED OUT THE MANY MINISTRATIONS REQUIRED TO KEEP THE BLUE GIANT
APPEASED...
WHERE I WAS PREVIOUSLY, WE USED MAINFRAME EQUIPMENT, PUNCHED CARDS,
AND REMOTE JOB ENTRY. WE HAD NONE OF THE "LUXURIES" MENTIONED
ABOVE. TURN AROUND TIMES WERE 45 MINUTES TO 4 HOURS DEPENDING ON
SYSTEM LOADS. ONE MISPLACED COMMA IN FORTRAN MIGHT MEAN 4 MORE
HOURS... WE LEARNED TO PRACTICE WHAT IS NOW A LOST ART: DESK CHECKING.
THIS IS WHERE YOU TAKE THE PROGRAM (ON CODING FORMS OF COURSE) AND
THE PROPOSED DATA SET TO YOUR DESK AND THEN PRETEND TO BE A COMPUTER
AND MENTALLY EXECUTE THE PROGRAM STEP BY STEP WHILE WRITTING DOWN THE
VARIABLE VALUES AND ANY OUTPUT PRINTED. IF THIS WERE STILL PRACTICED
TODAY, THERE WOULD BE A LOT LESS BUGGY CODE.
ANOTHER OF MY PROJECTS OF A FEW YEARS BACK WAS THE DEVELOPMENT OF A
FORTRAN IV BATCH PROGRAMMING SYSTEM THAT RAN ON A LINUX VPS SERVER.
THIS ALLOWED FORTRAN IV PROGRAMS CONTAINED WITHIN EMAILS SENT TO
AN EMAIL ADDRESS ON THE SERVER TO BE COMPILED AND RUN. SO A USER
WOULD SEND AN EMAIL WITH THEIR FORTRAN IV SOURCE PROGRAM AND WOULD
RECEIVE THROUGH RETURN EMAIL A FORMATTED LISTING AND THE
RESULTS OF PROGRAM EXECUTION. IT ALSO HANDLED CPU TIME LIMITS TO
CATCH INFINITE LOOP PROGRAMS. I RAN THIS FOR A WHILE, THEN I SHUT
THE VPS HOST DOWN... IT WAS A LOT OF FUN. THERE REALLY SHOULD BE
SOMEWHERE ON INTERNET TO RUN BATCH PROGRAMS... THERE IS A FANTASTIC
360 & 370 MAINFRAME SIMULATOR NAMED HERCULES. THIS WOULD MAKE A
DREAM BATCH SYSTEM. MAYBE REMOTE JOB ENTRY (RJE) COULD BE SIMULATED
OVER THE INTERNET. FOR MANY OLD TIMERS IT WOULD BE A DREAM COME TRUE...
AH, VIRTUAL CARD PUNCHES AND LINE PRINTERS, NON-INTERACTIVE COMPUTER
USE... AND BATCH HAS ONE SUPREME VIRTUE THAT NO OTHER STYLE HAS.
THEORETICALLY, A PROGRAM AND THE TOTALITY OF ITS INPUT (BOTH NEEDED
IN BATCH) PREDETERMINE THE OUTPUT. THIS IS WHAT ALLOWS ONE TO
USE COMPUTERS WITHOUT INTERACTION. AND BETTER STILL, IF THE PROGRAM
HAS NO INPUT DATA, THEN ZERO EXECUTION TIME IS POSSIBLE (ALL WORK
DONE DURING COMPILATION) WITH THE PROGRAM BEING "OPTIMIZED" INTO
ONE THAT SIMPLY PRINTS THE ANSWER...
AH, THE INNOCENT PLEASURES OF YOUTH, BEFORE BEING CORRUPTED BY DECADENT
MULTICORE PROCESSORS WITH MULTI GIGABYTE MEMORIES AND MULTI TERABYTE RAID
ARRAYS FILLED WITH DEGENERATED BLOATWARE INFECTED WITH MEGA MUTANT VIRUSES
AND CONNECTED TO GIGABIT NETWORKS SWARMING WITH WIRELESS EMANATIONS ...
GLAD TO KNOW YOU HAVE DECIDED TO GIVE MACRO-10 A TRY. IT IS
ONE OF THE BEST IN ITS CLASS. IF YOU LIKE MACRO-10 YOU MAY LIKE
THE PDP-11. IT HAS ONE OF THE MOST ELEGANT INSTRUCTION SETS, BUT
16 BIT DATA TYPES ARE A LITTLE BIT CONSTRAINING. AND THEN WE HAVE THE
STARK MINIMALISM OF THE PDP-8. IT ACCOMPLISHED WONDERS WITH ONLY
8 BASIC INSTRUCTIONS. EACH WAS TRULY GREAT IN ITS OWN CATEGORY...
LONG LIVE MINICOMPUTERS ... ... ...
--CEDRIC
25-Dec-2013 21:07:12-PST,2437;000000000001
Mail-From: PAPA created at 25-Dec-2013 21:07:11
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 21:07:11 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: MINICOMPUTERS
To: vulcanus@SDF.ORG
cc: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1312242358560.10323@iceland.freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <14851037810.11.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Hi, Cedric.
I put your theory to the test and wrote a couple of new Hello World
programs using puts() and putchar(). It turns out not to make any
difference in the size of the .EXE file produced here on TWENEX.ORG.
Incidentally, on my Ubuntu box the puts() version of Hello World is one
byte shorter than the standard printf() version, and the putchar()
version is 230 bytes longer. So both KCC here and gcc on Ubuntu seem to
be adding the bloat in a way that's not connected with the source code.
I recently taught myself a little bit of Forth. It was interesting
because it's only slightly higher-level than assembly language. It's a
little tricky to wrap your mind around some of the concepts, but it
was enlightening to see how you form programs that take nothing for
granted and are aware of where each byte is coming from and going to.
I, too, got a taste of batch transactions during one of my earliest
experiences with computers during a junior high summer camp. While it
is sad to see some of this fun technology pass out of use, at least we
have the chance to recreate some of it on the Internet and give later
generations a chance to play.
About sharing your doodle program, there's several avenues you can
take. First, I think you can make it so other Twenex users can run it
by setting the right permissions with @SET FILE PROTECTION. (Let me
know when you get it figured out so I can try it!) To advertise it
among other Twenex users you can post a notice to the Twenex BBOARD
(@MAIL BBOARD). For wider publicity in the SDF community, and maybe
attract a few new Twenex users, post on the main SDF cluster BBOARD.
Talk to SMJ if you want to move your executable file to a directory in
SYS:, which would let other Twenex users run the program without
specifying your home directory before the executable file name.
Thanks for sharing war stories about your glory days in a DEC shop.
I hope you don't mind me pumping you for information as I learn MACRO.
Hope you and yours had a great Christmas.
Long live minicomputers, indeed!
-- David
-------
27-Dec-2013 17:22:26-PST,4232;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 27-Dec-2013 16:15:58
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:15:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: MINICOMPUTERS
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14851509082.6.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
IT IS REALLY INTERESTING HOW THE HELLO PROGRAM CAN BE USED AS A COMPARATIVE
TOOL BETWEEN SYSTEMS AND LANGUAGES. THERE SEEMS TO BE BLOAT ADDED EVEN TO THE
SMALLEST PROGRAMS BY COMPILERS. ANOTHER INTERESTING TEST WOULD BE HOW THE
BLOAT FACTOR INCREASES WITH INCREASING SOURCE CODE SIZE. ANOTHER FACTOR
WOULD BE LANGUAGE FEATURES USED AND SUBPROGRAMS INVOKED. I THINK IT COULD
ALL BE WORKED UP INTO A LANGUAGE EFFICIENCY METRIC - I AM SURE IT HAS BEEN
DONE ALREADY SOMEWHERE...
THE FORTRAN AND COBOL RESULTS ARE INTERESTING. THOSE LANGUAGES WERE
NATIVE TO DEC AND I AM SURE A LOT OF EFFORT WAS EXPENDED TO MAKE THEM
EFFICIENT... ON THE OTHER HAND KCC MAY REPRESENT SOMETHING OPTIMIZED
FOR SOME OTHER ARCHITECTURE AND QUICKLY ADAPTED TO THE PDP-10. IN OTHER
WORDS A "NON-NATIVE" LANGUAGE SYSTEM.
THE RESULTS OF FORTRAN AND COBOL PRODUCING THE SAME SIZE CODE IS VERY
INTERESTING. IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE HAD A COMMON
CODE GENERATOR ...
MY MAIN EXPERIENCE IN THIS CODE SIZE AREA WAS WITH MS-DOS, AND THERE
PRINTF WAS A BIG PROBLEM REGARDING CODE SIZE...
I HAVE ALSO DABBLED A TINY BIT WITH FORTH. IT IS A VERY REMARKABLE LANGUAGE.
IN MANY IMPLEMENTATIONS IT IS ALSO A LANGUAGE THAT WANTS TO BE AN
OPERATING SYSTEM. IT CAN RUN STANDALONE ON MINIMAL HARDWARE. IN FACT
AT ONE POINT I CONSIDERED WRITTING LEARNING THE LANGUAGE IN ORDER TO
GIVE MY PDP-8 SIMULATORS SOME PURPOSE. I THOUGHT OF PERHAPS IMPLEMENTING
FORTH ON THE PDP-8. I THINK THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST SUITABLE
LANGUAGE FOR THIS MACHINE...
A GRAND PROJECT OF MINE GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS: FIRST GET THE PDP-8
SIMULATOR ON TWENEX GOING, SECOND IMPLEMENT FORTH ON THE PDP-8. THIRD
WRITE A CALCULATOR APPLICATION IN FORTH TO RUN ON THE SIMULATED -8. SO
THEN IT WOULD ALL HAVE A PURPOSE.
WITH REGARDS TO FORTRAN AND COBOL, THEY ARE GREAT APPLICATIONS LANGUAGES
FOR THEIR RESPECTIVE SPECIALTIES - FORTRAN FOR NUMERICAL CALCULATIONS, AND
COBOL FOR PRODUCING LINE PRINTER REPORTS. HOWEVER, THEY ARE PAINFUL TO
USE OUTSIDE THESE AREAS. A WHILE BACK I TRIED PROCESSING CHARACTER
STRINGS IN FORTRAN IV. IT IS MUCH HARDER THAN IN ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE.
THERE ARE SO MANY POSSIBLE PROJECTS... THEY REQUIRE A LOT OF TIME. IT
REALLY TOOK ME A WHILE TO GET BACK INTO THE MODE ( OR MOOD) OF WRITTING
PDP-10 ASSEMBLY AFTER ALMOST 30 YEARS. NOW TWO YEARS HAVE PASSED SINCE
I LAST WORKED ON DOODLE.MAC I LOOKED AT THE CODE, AND QUITE FRANKLY
I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT 100% ANYMORE. I SUPPOSE I HAVE TO GET BACK INTO
MACRO-10 MODE, OCTAL, ETC. PACKING 7 BIT ASCII STRINGS INTO 36 BIT
OCTAL CONSTANTS IS NOT CONSIDERED NATURAL ANYMORE. AND VERY ANACHRONISTIC
CONSIDERING THEY WERE VT100 CURSOR CONTROL ESCAPE SEQUENCES. ANYHOW,
THE PROGRAM CAN BE USED AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW TO GET A SCREEN BASED PROGRAM
RUNNING ON TOPS-20. THE PDP-10 SERIES HAD FRONT END PROCESSORS THAT
WERE MEANT FOR LINE BY LINE INTERACTION. THAT IS WHY EARLY SCREEN
ORIENTED EDITORS WERE SEEN AS A HORRIBLE MISUSE OF RESOURCES. I CAN JUST
ENVISION A SCENARIO: "YOU MEAN THAT PROGRAM WILL CAUSE AN INTERRUPT ON
EVERY CHARACTER TYPED !!! THATS CRAZY. DON'T YOU REALIZE CPU TIME IS
$600/HOUR. WE WILL NEVER RUN THAT KIND OF SOFTWARE HERE... ... ..."
THEN CAME THE MOUSE WITH ITS FLOOD OF INTERRUPTS - BUT THAT WAS TOWARDS
A CHEAP MICROPROCESSOR...
SINCED I MENTIONED MICE, I JUST WANTED TO SAY I HAVE ALSO DEVELOPED SOME
QUITE UNUSUAL CODE THAT USES A MOUSE IN CONJUNCTION WITH TOPS-20. NO
GUI THOUGH.... THIS TAKES ADVANTAGE OF A FEATURE OF XTERM THAT ALLOWS
CURSOR POSITION AT THE TIME OF A MOUSE CLICK TO BE REPORTED TO THE
APPLICATION RUNNING ON THE REMOTE SYSTEM. ALL THE WORK IS DONE BY XTERM,
THE CLIENT JUST GETS THE COORDINATES. THIS WOULD ALLOW SOME VERY EXOTIC
TYPES OF EDITORS UNDER TOPS-20. I THINK THE SAM EDITOR UNDER PLAN 9
WORKS LIKE THIS. THIS WOULD REALLY BE ANACHRONISTIC ... BUT, ITS POSSIBLE,
SO WHY NOT ?
LONG LIVE MINICOMPUTERS !
-CEDRIC
-------
27-Dec-2013 20:31:30-PST,1272;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 27-Dec-2013 20:31:30
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 20:31:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: DOODLE PROGRAM
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14851555600.6.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
I THINK I SET THE PROTECTION CODES CORRECTLY ON DOODLE.REL AND DOODLE.MAC
THEY ARE AT TOPS20:<VULCAN>
I LEFT THE PROGRAM AS A .REL FILE BECAUSE IT IS SMALLER THAN AN .EXE
THE DOODLE PROGRAM STARTS OUT AT THE CENTER OF THE SCREEN. IT LEAVES
A TRAIL BEHIND AS THE CURSOR IS MOVED WITH THE ARROW KEYS. BACKSPACE
ALSO WORKS AND WILL BACKSTEP ONE POSITION. THE TRAIL CAN CROSS OVER
AN EXISTING TRAIL. PRESS Q TO QUIT. AT THE END A SUITABLE CONGRATULATORY
MESSAGE IS TYPED AND THE TERMINAL IS RESTORED BACK TO ITS TYPICAL
"COOKED MODE". THE PROGRAM IS RESTARTABLE. SO AFTER BEING RETURNED BACK
TO THE TOPS-20 MONITOR, YOU CAN RESTART THE PROGRAM BY SIMPLY USING THE
C COMMAND...
IT SEEMS LIKE A SILLY PROGRAM, BUT IT WAS QUITE A BIT OF WORK TO FIGURE
OUT HOW TO GET AROUND THE TOPS-20 FRONT END PROCESSOR (THE "COOKED MODE"
COOK !!!) AND INTO A RAW MODE ALLOWING CHARACTER BY CHARACTER INTERACTION.
BY THE WAY, THE .REL FILE IS RUN WITH @EX DOODLE
LONG LIVE MINICOMPUTERS !
-CEDRIC
-------
27-Dec-2013 22:46:10-PST,716;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 27-Dec-2013 22:46:10
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:46:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: DOODLE
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14851580116.8.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
I CREATED <VULCAN.SHARDIR> AND COPIED DOODLE.MAC AND DOODLE.REL THERE.
I SET PROTECTIONS ON THE FILES AND THE DIRECTORY AS WELL TO ALLOW
ACCESS...
THESE SUBDIRECTORIES ON TOPS-20 AND TOPS-10 HAVE ALWAYS SEEMED A LITTLE
BIT OF AN AFTERTHOUGHT IN THE DESIGN OF THE OS... WE NEVER USED THEM
IN THE OLD DAYS -- WE WERE NOT GIVEN ENOUGH SPACE TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE...
JUST LIKE WITH UPPER CASE, I ASSOCIATE PDP-10 WITH ONE SINGLE DIRECTORY...
--CEDRIC
-------
31-Dec-2013 17:53:14-PST,552;000000000011
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 31-Dec-2013 17:53:14
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 17:53:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: DOODLE
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14852575367.11.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
I THINK I GOT THE PROTECTION SET RIGHT. IT REQUIRED THE USE OF THE BUILD
COMMAND. I USED THE FILES-ONLY ATTRIBUTE FOR THE DIRECTORY. THESE
TOPS-20 SUBDIRECTORIES ARE A REAL CONVOLUTED MESS... BUT ANYWAY, IT
SEEMS TO WORK FROM MY ACCOUNT. SO THEY ARE IN <VULCAN.SHARDIR>DOODLE.*
--CEDRIC
-------
1-Jan-2014 14:00:27-PST,656;000000000001
Mail-From: PAPA created at 1-Jan-2014 14:00:27
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 14:00:27 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: DOODLE
To: VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG
cc: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <14852575367.11.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Message-ID: <14852795133.11.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Happy New Year, Cedric.
2014 is off to a great start. I can now run DOODLE and it is a
brilliant piece of programming! It may be a simple concept, but I am
amazed at how much control you've achieved over the terminal. And the
source code is surprisingly short.
DOODLE is additional inspiration for my study of MACRO.
Many thanks.
-- David
-------
1-Jan-2014 18:42:59-PST,3389;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 1-Jan-2014 18:42:59
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 18:42:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: DOODLE
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14852846567.11.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
GLAD TO HEAR YOU LIKED DOODLE. THE HARDEST PART WAS FIGURING OUT HOW TO
CONVINCE THE TOPS-20 FRONT END PROCESSOR TO PASS RAW CHARACTERS TO THE
PROGRAM AS THEY ARRIVED RATHER THAN COOK THEM UP UNTIL A CARRIAGE RETURN.
THEY DID NOT TEACH THINGS LIKE THAT TO STUDENTS IN THE MID 1980'S... I
HAD TO DO A LOT OF DIGGING INTO THE TOPS-20 MANUALS AVAILABLE ONLINE.
I WAS TRYING TO REMEMBER MY MOTIVATION FOR WRITTING THE DOODLE PROGRAM.
MAYBE I WAS TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW TO DO RAW CHARACTER MODE ON TOPS-20
IN PREPARATION FOR WRITTING A SIMPLE EDITOR. I FIRST PROTOTYPED THE
IDEA UNDER LINUX AND BSD. BY THE WAY, RAW MODE IS SO VERY EASY UNDER
UNIX AND LINUX. IT CAN EVEN BE DONE FROM THE SHELL...
I HAVE ALWAYS HAD AN INTEREST IN THE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE HOST SYSTEM
AND THE TERMINAL. THIS IS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT WHEN USING EDITORS. IN
THE OLD DAYS WITH 300 BAUD MODEMS, THE PROBLEM WAS SHEER LACK OF
DATA CAPACITY. IN THOSE DAYS YOU COULD SEE THE CHARACTERS AS THEY WERE
PLACED ON THE SCREEN. IT REALLY BOTHERED ME TO KNOW THAT DATA THAT HAD
SCROLLED OFF THE SCREEN WOULD HAVE TO BE RETRANSMITTED IF IT WERE TO BE
VIEWED AGAIN. UNDERSTANDABLE ON A REAL TERMINAL WITH NO EXTRA MEMORY,
BUT HARD TO ACCEPT ON A TERMINAL EMULATOR FOR A PC THAT DID HAVE THE
MEMORY. I THOUGHT, WHY IS THE DATA NOT SAVED... THE REAL REASON FOR
THE LACK OF A SOLUTION WAS THAT THERE WAS NO STANDARD FOR THIS. WELL,
I SOON MOVED UP TO A 1200 BAUD MODEM, AND EVENTUALLY TO 14.4KBPS...
I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM THAT WE EXPERIENCE TODAY IS NOT DATA CAPACITY,
BUT RATHER LATENCY... WE ARE BOTH A LONG, LONG WAY FROM TWENEX.ORG
I THE NETWORK PACKETS CAN BRING US TONS OF DATA DOWNSTREAM, BUT EVERY
KEYSTROKE OR FEW KEYSTROKES TAKES UP A PACKET (DEPENDING ON TCP PARAMETERS).
IF A KEY IS HELD DOWN, A CONSTANT STREAM OF PACKETS GOES OUT AND THE ECHOS
COME BACK. I HAVE TRIED HALF DUPLEX ON SDF.ORG, BUT THEN YOU HAVE TO
USE COOKED MODE, AND THIS PRECLUDES MOST SCREEN EDITORS.
SO SOME NEW KIND OF SOFTWARE IS NEEDED TO ADAPT TO THESE MODERN CONDITIONS.
OF COURSE, SPECIAL SOFTWARE COULD BE DEVELOPED ON BOTH THE CLIENT (LOCAL
MACHINE) AND THE SERVER (REMOTE HOST). BUT PERHAPS SOME OTHER APPROACH
IS POSSIBLE. MAINFRAMES SOLVED THE PROBLEM LONG AGO USING PAGE BY PAGE
INTERACTION. IT IS IRONIC THAT THIS IS MORE SUITABLE TO INTERNET TODAY
THAN THE DEC APPROACH. EVEN A ASR-33 TELETYPE ONLY TOOK 100 MS PER
CHARACTER WHEN ON A LOCAL LOOP. THAT OUTPERFORMS THE FASTEST PC TODAY
WHEN INTERCONTINENTAL COMMUNICATIONS ARE INVOLVED.
AN IDEA THAT I HAD RECENTLY WAS INDEED PAGE BY PAGE SCROLLING WITH CURSOR
POSITIONING WITHIN A PAGE DONE WITH THE MOUSE. XTERM HAS A MOUSE
POSITION REPORTING FEATURE THAT COULD REPORT TO THE HOST THE COORDINATES
AT THE TIME OF THE CLICK. I HAVE PROTOTYPED THIS WITH TOPS-20 AND IT
SEEMS TO WORK. SO, PAGE UP, PAGE DOWN, AND MOUSE WOULD BE USED TO NAVIGATE.
IT WOULD BE VERY FAST SINCE THERE WOULD BE NO STREAM OF CURSOR CONTROL
KEY REPETITIONS. THE LOAD ON THE HOST WOULD BE MUCH LOWER AS WELL. IT
WOULD BE A VERY STRANGE COMBINATION OF 1970'S AND 2010'S PROGRAMMING !
--CEDRIC
-------
4-Jan-2014 12:22:16-PST,1196;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 4-Jan-2014 03:56:49
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 03:56:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: EXE SIZES
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14853471675.6.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
THE INFORMATION YOU POSTED ABOUT THE SIZE OF .REL FILES AND .EXE FILES IN
FORTRAN AND C IS VERY INTERESTING. IT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE
EXACTLY WHAT THE LINKER IS PLACING IN THE .EXE FILES DERIVED FROM C
SOURCE FILES COMPILED UNDER KCC. MAYBE SOME KIND OF PROGRAM COULD BE
DEVELOPED TO "TRIM THE FAT" FROM THOSE .EXE FILES. OR MAYBE IT IS JUST A
MATTER OF APPLYING THE CORRECT OPTIONS WHEN LINKING... SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING
VERY WORTHWHILE INVESTIGATING SINCE C IS A VERY GOOD LANGUAGE FOR
DEVELOPING BOTH SYSTEMS AND APPLICATIONS PROGRAMS. IT IS ALSO MUCH MORE
FLEXIBLE THAN FORTRAN OR COBOL. BY THE WAY DEC LANGUAGES OFTEN HAD
MANY EXTENSIONS TO MAKE PROGRAMMING MORE CONVENIENT ON DEC SYSTEMS.
ALSO FORTRAN 77 IS A LOT EASIER THAN THE ORIGINAL FORTRAN IV.
I CHECKED THE ANSI X3.9-1978 ON FORTRAN AND SEEMS CHARACTER DATA WAS
PART OF THE STANDARD... WERE EXTENSIONS ADDED BY DEC LATER ?
HAPPY NEW YEAR, --CEDRIC
-------
4-Jan-2014 12:22:16-PST,959;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 4-Jan-2014 04:59:11
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 04:59:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: KCC INSIGHTS
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14853483030.6.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
I LOOKED FURTHER INTO KCC. THERE ARE SOME INTERESTING FILES IN <C>
IN PARTICULAR <C>USYS.DOC IT SEEMS KCC KEEPS A LAYER OF COMPATIBILITY
AT RUNTIME WITH BSD TYPE SYSTEM CALLS SUPPORTED. THIS MAY VERY WELL
BE THE BLOAT EFFECT WE ARE SEEING. IT IS JUST THAT C COMES FROM THE
UNIX WORLD AND TRIES TO KEEP SOME OF THE SAME PARADIGMS IN THE TOPS-20
ENVIRONMENT. THIS REQUIRES A RUNTIME LAYER... SO IT IS NOT REALLY
NATIVE TO TOPS-20. TOO BAD. WELL, IT DOES EASE THE PORTING OF SOFTWARE...
BUT SOME THINGS CAN NEVER BE THE SAME -- LIKE THE 9 BIT CHARACTERS IT
HAS TO USE TO EMULATE 8 BIT BYTES... INSTEAD OF PACKING 5 CHARACTERS TO
A WORD -- OR WHAT IS TRULY NATIVE -- SIXBIT.
--CEDRIC
-------
4-Jan-2014 18:26:38-PST,2562;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 4-Jan-2014 18:26:38
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 18:26:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: BLISS
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14853630022.6.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
HELLO DAVID,
ANOTHER LANGUAGE THAT YOU MAY WISH TO CONSIDER FOR USE ON TWENEX IS THE
SYSTEMS PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE CALLED BLISS. IT WAS DEVELOPED AROUND 1971.
IN THE VERY OLD DAYS, HARDWARE WAS SO EXPENSIVE AND SCARCE THAT SOFTWARE
WAS OFTEN AN AFTERTHOUGHT... SOFTWARE WAS OFTEN PROVIDED FREE WITH
THE MACHINES... STRANGE TIMES THOSE WERE. HOWEVER, WITH DRECEASING HARDWAR
COST AND INCREASING SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COSTS. THE REALIZATION CAME THAT
SOFTWARE WAS BECOMING EXPENSIVE. THIS PROBABLY HAPPENED IN THE EARLY
1970'S SO AROUND THIS TIME MANY MANUFACTURERS INTRODUCED SYSTEM PROGRAMMING
LANGUAGES. THEY WERE OFTEN USED INTERNALLY TO DEVELOP APPLICATIONS AND
THE LESS CRITICAL PARTS OF THE SYSTEM (UTILITIES, COMPILERS). BLISS WAS
ONE OF THOSE SYSTEM PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. IT SEEMS IT WAS THE ONE USED AT
DEC. A FEW YEARS LATER THERE AROSE THE LANGUAGE C. IT IS REALLY THE LOWEST
OF THE HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGES -- AND VERY SUITABLE FOR BOTH SYSTEMS AND
APPLICATIONS DEVELOPMENT. IT SEEMS TO HAVE SWEPT THE OTHERS AWAY -- UNLESS
THEY WERE ALREADY HEAVILY USED IN AN ORGANIZATION.
AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, I THINK THAT KCC CATERS TO THE PORTING OF BSD
APPLICATIONS TO TOPS-20 AND TOPS-10. A WORTHY GOAL, BUT ONE THAT
REQUIRES SIMULATING THE SYSTEM CALLS OF BSD AT RUNTIME.
ON THE OTHER HAND, BLISS SEEMS TO BE TOTALLY NATIVE TO THE PDP-10
ARCHITECTURE. I THINK THAT IT SHOULD PRODUCE THE BEST CODE WITH THE
LEAST PROGRAMMING EFFORT. OF COURSE ONE HAS TO LEARN ANOTHER
"DEAD LANGUAGE".
AND KCC MIGHT NOT BE TOO BAD FOR LARGER PROGRAMS. SINCE THE COMPILER DOES
PRODUCE REASONABLE CODE, AND THE SYSTEM CALLS EMULATION CODE JUST ADDS
IN TO THE BASE SIZE, .EXE FILE SIZE SHOULD GROW MODERATELY WITH
SOURCE CODE SIZE.
ANOTHER OLD IDEA FROM THE DOS DAYS IS TO PACK MANY SMALL UTILITIES INTO
ONE OR A FEW BLOCKS OF STORAGE. SINCE A PROGRAM TAKES UP A MINIMUM OF
ONE BLOCK, THIS WOULD AVOID ALL THE WASTE ACROSS MULTIPLE PROGRAMS EACH
IN THEIR OWN BLOCK. MAYBE A COMMAND INTERPRETER COULD BE WRITTEN SUCH
THAT IF THE FUNCTIONALITY NEEDED WAS ITS OWN COMMANDS IT WOULD EXTRACT
AND RUN THE COMMAND ITSELF. IF NOT IT WOULD PASS THE COMMAND LINE OVER
TO THE REGULAR COMMAND PROCESSOR. BUT THIS MAY SIMPLY BE A TIME-SPACE
TRADEOFF...
THERE SEEM TO BE MANY ALTERNATIVES...
--CEDRIC
-------
6-Jan-2014 09:50:35-PST,2416;000000000011
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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 11:52:15 -0600
Message-ID: <CACg-mBJaTSj-9VWJOrGyfqPfDv2taFhrV6TfK7UdBRaadjpTOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: TOPS-20 COBOL
From: "Doc Trins O'Grace" <doctrinsograce@gmail.com>
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb04bd293d7d604ef50ebb0
--047d7bb04bd293d7d604ef50ebb0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi, Dave...
Have you made any headway on the program you were working on?
It is cool that someone is actually doing something on TOPS-20 these days.
--Scott
--
"The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve
me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." --Samuel Davies (1723-1761)
--047d7bb04bd293d7d604ef50ebb0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi, Dave...</div><div><br></div><div>Have you made any headway on the program you were working on?</div><div><br></div><div>It is cool that someone is actually doing something on TOPS-20 these days.</div>
<div><br></div><div>--Scott<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>"The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." --Samuel Davies (1723-1761)
</div></div>
--047d7bb04bd293d7d604ef50ebb0--
6-Jan-2014 15:51:43-PST,1084;000000000001
Mail-From: PAPA created at 6-Jan-2014 15:51:22
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 15:51:22 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 COBOL
To: doctrinsograce@gmail.com
cc: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
In-Reply-To: <CACg-mBJaTSj-9VWJOrGyfqPfDv2taFhrV6TfK7UdBRaadjpTOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14854126043.10.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Hi, Scott.
Yes, I did figure out the magic to make Cobol read a text file. However, it
turns out the the Cobol compiler on Twenex.org is a refugee from TOPS-10 and
can only read files with names that are exactly "6.3" characters long.
It turns out that at about the same time I also figured out some problems
that were blocking me from implementing the same idea in Fortran. Since the
Fortran compiler accepts data files with any valid TOPS-20 file name and has
more flexible string handling than Cobol, I'm going to set Cobol aside for
now and work in Fortran for the time being.
I am really enjoying shaking a little of the dust off this classic system!
Regards,
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
7-Jan-2014 06:15:10-PST,6448;000000000011
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<14854126043.10.PAPA@TWENEX.ORG>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 08:16:28 -0600
Message-ID: <CACg-mBKb-Dh+9+wxuC5rpJzA_ioSN9G1VfGDfL=xhqsCrCC-7g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 COBOL
From: "Doc Trins O'Grace" <doctrinsograce@gmail.com>
To: David Meyer <PAPA@twenex.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb04bd2b20d1e04ef620524
--047d7bb04bd2b20d1e04ef620524
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Thank you for the reply David...
I used to work on the old DEC equipment of the 70's: PDP-8, PDP-11, DEC-10,
DEC-20. (Let's see, RSX, RTS, RSTS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20) I always expected
a bit more command-line stuff to come out of TOPS-20 into VMS. Those were
the "good old days!"
When I was but a lad out of High School I wrote a cross-assembler for the
Altair 8800 and I wrote it Fortran. Mostly I wrote it Fortran because I
didn't know any better. The assembler ran on a CDC-6400. I deemed myself so
very clever. That was in 1974. The Fortran I chose was available only on
the University of Texas CDC system (in Austin), and had been heavily
extended.
Now I am an old man plugging away at COBOL, waiting for entropy to finally
complete its work. I am much more humble with the passage of time!
How did you end up on the other side of the Pacific? Sorry... although
humbled, I am still curious.
--Scott
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 5:51 PM, David Meyer <PAPA@twenex.org> wrote:
> Hi, Scott.
>
> Yes, I did figure out the magic to make Cobol read a text file. However, it
> turns out the the Cobol compiler on Twenex.org is a refugee from TOPS-10
> and
> can only read files with names that are exactly "6.3" characters long.
>
> It turns out that at about the same time I also figured out some problems
> that were blocking me from implementing the same idea in Fortran. Since the
> Fortran compiler accepts data files with any valid TOPS-20 file name and
> has
> more flexible string handling than Cobol, I'm going to set Cobol aside for
> now and work in Fortran for the time being.
>
> I am really enjoying shaking a little of the dust off this classic system!
>
> Regards,
>
> David Meyer
> Takarazuka, Japan
> papa@twenex.org
> -------
>
--
"The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve
me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." --Samuel Davies (1723-1761)
--047d7bb04bd2b20d1e04ef620524
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you for the reply David...</div><div><br></div>=
<div>I used to work on the old DEC equipment of the 70's: PDP-8, PDP-11=
, DEC-10, DEC-20. (Let's see, RSX, RTS, RSTS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20) I a=
lways expected a bit more command-line stuff to come out of TOPS-20 into VM=
S. Those were the "good old days!"</div>
<div><br></div><div>When I was but a lad out of High School I wrote a cross=
-assembler for the Altair 8800 and I wrote it Fortran. Mostly I wrote it Fo=
rtran because I didn't know any better. The assembler ran on a CDC-6400=
. I deemed myself so very clever. That was in 1974. The Fortran I chose was=
available only on the University of Texas CDC system (in Austin), and had =
been heavily extended.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Now I am an old man plugging away at COBOL, waiting for=
entropy to finally complete its work. I am much more humble with the passa=
ge of time!</div><div><br></div><div>How did you end up on the other side o=
f the Pacific? Sorry... although humbled, I am still curious.</div>
<div><br></div><div>--Scott</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 5:51 PM, David Meyer <span=
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:PAPA@twenex.org" target=3D"_blank">PAPA@=
twenex.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, Scott.<br>
<br>
Yes, I did figure out the magic to make Cobol read a text file. However, it=
<br>
turns out the the Cobol compiler on Twenex.org is a refugee from TOPS-10 an=
d<br>
can only read files with names that are exactly "6.3" characters =
long.<br>
<br>
It turns out that at about the same time I also figured out some problems<b=
r>
that were blocking me from implementing the same idea in Fortran. Since the=
<br>
Fortran compiler accepts data files with any valid TOPS-20 file name and ha=
s<br>
more flexible string handling than Cobol, I'm going to set Cobol aside =
for<br>
now and work in Fortran for the time being.<br>
<br>
I am really enjoying shaking a little of the dust off this classic system!<=
br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
David Meyer<br>
Takarazuka, Japan<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:papa@twenex.org">papa@twenex.org</a><br>
-------<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>"The venerable dea=
d are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsens=
e of surviving mortals." --Samuel Davies (1723-1761)
</div>
--047d7bb04bd2b20d1e04ef620524--
7-Jan-2014 18:16:29-PST,1739;000000000001
Mail-From: VULCAN created at 7-Jan-2014 18:16:29
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 18:16:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Cedric Lorenzo Wats <VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
Subject: PDP-10 ASSEMBLY
To: PAPA@TWENEX.ORG
Message-ID: <14854414607.10.VULCAN@TWENEX.ORG>
YES, SIMULATED PDP-10'S WILL BECOME FASTER AND FASTER, BUT THEY PROBABLY
WILL NEVER HAVE MORE MEMORY ...
YOU WILL SOON FIND OUT THAT PDP-10 PROGRAMS CAN BE READ ALOUD VERY
NICELY. THE MNEMONICS FOR THE INSTRUCTIONS HAVE WONDERFUL PHONETICS.
THAT IS ALSO PART OF THE LEGACY OF THE ANCIENT WORLD TO US. I WAS
FORTUNATE TO HEAR SOME OF THE LAST ACTIVE SPEAKERS OF THIS CLASSICAL
LANGUAGE... MODERN ASSEMBLY LANGUAGES ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR DIRECT
USE BY HUMANS -- THEIR PHONETICS ARE UNPRONOUNCEABLY HARSH AND ARE
BEST LEFT TO ROBOTIC COMPILERS.
AND JUST THE THOUGHT OF EXECUTING PROGRAMS OUT OF DATA REGISTERS INSTEAD
OF CORE MEMORY IS A POWERFUL INCENTIVE TO MAKE LOOPS VERY TIGHT.
AND WHAT OTHER LANGUAGE COULD BE DOCUMENTED ON ONE SHEET OF PAPER. YES,
THE WHOLE INSTRUCTION SET ON ONE PAGE. AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF
INSTRUCTIONS, BUT THEY COME IN A MIX AND MATCH TYPE OF MENU.
AND ONE AND ONLY ONE WAY TO CALCULATE ADDRESSES FOR ALL INSTRUCTIONS.
THIS IS A PARAGON OF UNIFORMITY.
AND INSTRUCTIONS THAT ARE TRULY USEFUL AND GENERAL PURPOSE.
AND MACROS THAT IF USED CREATIVELY CAN ALMOST MIMIC STRUCTURED
PROGRAMMING IN A HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGE.
AH, WHAT MORE COULD ONE DESIRE IN AN ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE... AND AS MANY
AN ANCIENT BARD SANG -- THE GREATEST ARCHITECTURE THERE EVER WAS ... ... ...
BUT THAT WORLD IS GONE FOREVER. MODERN PROGRAMMERS DO NOT USE PDP-10 ASSEMBLY.
NOR ANY KIND OF ASSEMBLY. ONLY BLOATWARE GENERATORS. ALAS ... ... ...
--CEDRIC
-------
7-Jan-2014 21:01:11-PST,1894;000000000001
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