The full equation is a bit of a religious quest tho'. It's nice but reality keeps getting in the way. == *whew* good. But I'm just speaking of questing in general. Think mad libs. Substitute as follows: First Heaven. Now substitute Utopia. Now substitute Full Equation. This is how I'm thinking. It's not that it's not a noble pursuit. It is. But the very questing itself is a cognitively/socially religious drive, even if there's no crosses on the windows. Doesn't invalidate at all. Just behavioral patterns. == Oh, no. I'm agnostic. But I notice behavioral patterns among people and groups and I can sense when things start getting a religious quality to them that's all. Doesn't invalidate, just noticing. == Oh absolutely. Determinism has been the general course in the pursuit of modern science since at least the 19th century - I'd say 1840s or so, although it has a religious basis from long before that, with some roots in Aquinas I think? (it's late and can't remember) but certainly bore strongest fruit with the beginnings of Calvinism. Even though Calvinism had more in it conceptually, I'd say that modern Science stems from its branch, whereas the Rationalists (who believed in Free Will quite strongly) took their cue from another route, although I haven't traced it fully. I'd say that logical positivism was some of the first attempts to merge rationalism + deterministic science and the trend continues, even though the relativity thing threw an interesting kink in the works for deterministic science... but most of the sciences ignore relativity. They kinda have to to function well. == Knock God off the top and you got deterministic Science. Bam! Good. I hate remembering things poorly. like emoticon ...wait or take him out of the bottom. You get my 'gist' tongue emoticon == Yeah, I was just tracing where he got _his_ thinking from too. Newton was 17th century. Aquinas was 13th century. Newton's inertia came from medieval impetus and part of Newton's inertia has been subsumed since then, as he allowed for internal mechanisms but later usage, likely by the 19th century, removed the internal mechanisms allowing only for external causation. == So, the order seemed to be: Causation: God (Aquinas) -> God/internal/external (impetus) --> internal/external (Newton's inertia) --> external (modified intertia, modern usage). ==