The historical trail of Protestant Christianity upon modern
   Atheism and modern Science is laughably obvious.

   When they complain about their Mom, they look silly, Dawkins
   especially so. I understand the OP. Atheists often seem to be
   better Christians than Christians, with the single exception of
   changing a few words around.

   "I believe in God" becomes "God is a concept of Faith, which I
   reject thanks to Reason" [Faith in the power of Reason has a
   historically Christian basis, easily traceable].

   "Christian values" becomes "Common Sense".

   Oh, and lots of memes get posted and pats on the back, "haha
   stupid mom and dad! Yeah our parents suck!" - I mean, "Stupid
   Christians", etc.

   But... all the while being good little boys and girls generally
   speaking.

   I'm agnostic so I don't have to worry about either Christian or
   Atheist in debates - I'm the silly buffoon figure for both sides
   tongue emoticon My sister, now in her mid 40s, has considered
   herself a Wiccan since she was a teenager in the early 80s..

   We were raised going to a Methodist church; I enjoyed it, my
   sister was a troublemaker. My mom still goes to church, I
   haven't for a long time; the Internet is my church I think
   tongue emoticon

   Yet, my mother and I have often noticed, for someone who is
   proud of not being a Christian and being a Wiccan instead, she's
   more of a perfect Christian than most Christians with the fish
   on the car and stuff.

   So, the perfect Methodist in every way, except by declaration,
   such as Dawkins may be the PERFECT little Anglican, with the
   exception of the name. Actually, that's the point of academic
   discussions, like we're having now. Humanism is a branch of
   Christian Protestantism as well. I know too much about history
   to pat myself on the back and believe that somehow these values
   just FELL MAGICALLY FROM THE SKY.

   They have a historical basis.

   "The first Humanist Manifesto was issued by a conference held at
   the University of Chicago in 1933.[9] Signatories included the
   philosopher John Dewey, but the majority were ministers (chiefly
   Unitarian) and theologians. They identified humanism as an
   ideology that espouses reason, ethics, and social and economic
   justice, and they called for science to replace dogma and the
   supernatural as the basis of morality and decision-making"

   Sound familiar?

   The concept of "human values" _is_ humanist. When you say "human
   values" that is humanism. It's not a label. It's a history. That
   is part of your faith, and I respect that. Exactly my point.
   Where did Logical Positivsm come from? Where did the Progressive
   movement come from? Where did the concept of Reason being the
   ultimate guide come from? These things all led to the
   development of Humanism.

   We like to throw away history too much in modern culture,
   probably because it's awkward to face it. The world might as
   well have started in that's a lie you were told.
   We have a lot of that history. We're just not taught it. We're
   taught that it disappeared after the fall of the Roman Empire
   and magically revived 900 years later.

   That's a lie.

   Classic Greek texts were still taught in Byzantium for that
   ENTIRE 1000 yrs period of "missing history" - and they've got
   all the record-keeping. It's all perfectly traceable. You're
   reflectively projecting the present onto a further away past. We
   can only go by what we have information on.

   We may *assume* many things about pre-written history, but we
   don't know.   Of course it is. But we can't speak about what we
   don't have records for. That's just speculation. When it's part
   of speculation, it's part of a faith system. I'm not limiting
   the word faith to mean Christian. I'm speaking of the nature of
   belief, of trust in what we've been taught, etc. I'm primarily a
   humanist, although not to the extreme of the early Progressives
   -* On the contrary, I _can_ say where it started because I can
   only speak what we have records on.

   The other stuff is storytelling. I like storytelling but it's
   storytelling. it's part of my belief system.

   But my belief system came from somewhere.

   I can trace that belief system up to a point.
   I have a few quibbles (of course) with a few things you said but
   the 'gist' (to use that term - I love the term 'gist') - is spot
   on smile emoticon What you're talking about _comes out _ of your
   belief system. The things you state as certainties are a *part*
   of your belief system and you are professing your beliefs. Oh I
   agree. Words aren't magical. it's stories and beliefs, including
   everything I'm saying. Of course, it's possible the the Universe
   is Made of Math instead of stories, but I think that's also a
   nice story for the masses as well.

   But belief that "it's all narrative" is part of my belief system
   as well smile emoticon My history: I'm 43. I spent most of my
   life saying, I HATE LABELS". Then I realized I just hated being
   _mislabeled_ yet felt free to stick labels on everything else
   that I didn't care for.

   I was being a hypocrite.

   So I decided to see myself as if I was a figure of history being
   dissected in acadmics. How would THEY label me? And I've been
   trying to crucify my every cherished belief and find its root.
   It's been very helpful. I have a long way to go. It's ok - it's
   a part of discussions and debates - sometimes they