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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:00:45 -0500
From: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@optonline.net>
Subject: Spell/Ispell Entry Vector?
To: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
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Can anyone help me find the logic in Spell/ISpell for the alternate
entry to run as an inferior fork? The entry vector? I have looked
through the following files:
1. TOPS20:<*>*.MID.0
2. TOPS20:<*>*.MAC.0
Nada. I did a GET on SPELL.EXE, then DDT'ed it. And it has a
bona-fide entry vector which transfers to BEGAUT which then transfers
to AUTOST. DDT says these are in the SPELL module... Well, they're
not. Or don't seem to be. Or I didn't see them...
Under the assumption that these variable names might be being
constructed with macros depending on how SPELL is being assembled, I
also looked for the data locations being used, viz:
1. AUIJFN
2. AUOJFN
3. DICTBF
4. CORRFF
5. UCASE
6. NOEND
7. EXCPFF
8. DATAFF
9. DOCTFF
Nothing. Not in any .MID or .MAC on my PANDA distribution/
As background, the reason that I'm looking at SPELL/ISPELL is because
I'm getting an error from MM (running EMACS) that I wanted to track
down:
ESP Error in Spell Program: Maybe Directory Full?
If I am connected to my login directory, no error. If I am connected
to a particular directory that I recently created, I get the error.
So I checked all of the groups that I created, end-access, access on
the structure and public structure, enable/disable. Same error. So,
time to have a look... I've tried killing the Spell Job in EMACS (AUX
library). The fork goes away and when it is created again, I get the
same error.
If anybody has a solution to the error, that's great, but I'd still
like to be able to look at the alternate entry logic. I know what MM
does, but I'd like to see what SPELL accepts and how it goes about
doing what it does.
28-Feb-2010 19:11:32-PST,3361;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:06:46 -0500
From: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@acedsl.com>
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To: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
Subject: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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I happened to have lost my way (again) in the Wikipedia, when I
glanced through an article on Daylight Saving Time (DST).
Although I don't need to worry about anything (certainly not under
Tops-20), I always check up on this stuff. As may be recalled, DST
was changed in 2007 to begin on the second Sunday in March (or on the
14th for this year, which is in about two weeks)
One notes the following entries in the RULES macro DATIME.MAC:
DST 1920,400,400 ;[9098] no real standard existed
DST 1918,LSTMAR,LSTOCT ;[9098] temporary summer time during WWI
This is indeed correct because no real standard did, in fact, exist.
However, it is also true that New York actually DID have DST after WWI
so that its "financial exchanges could maintain an hour of arbitrage
trading with London". It would also appear that this was also the
case with "Chicago and Cleveland to keep pace with New York".
Since I live in New York (about 29 miles due east of Manhattan on Long
Island), this creates the immediate, urgent non-emergency that I
should update this entry. But, I don't know when DST began and ended.
Was it the last Sunday in March to the last Sunday in October like the
first World War?
One also assumes that DST continued to be in effect in New York after
World War II for the above reason. Therefore, I would need to change
the entries for 1946.
; DST 1946,LSTAPR,LSTOCT ;[9098] Entry if you had DST from 1946-1966
DST 1946,400,400 ;[9098] Assume you didn't have DST 1946-1966
Note that these start and end times are different from World War I...
Anybody know how/where I could find out more about this? I noticed
from another comment "that VAX/VMS doesn't (yet) have any algorithm
for summer time!"
Did it ever? Maybe not. Whatever the case, it always makes my day
whenever I get to make Tops-20 just that much better than VMS (or
anything else, for that matter)
28-Feb-2010 19:27:35-PST,3779;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:00:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@acedsl.com>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> As may be recalled, DST
> was changed in 2007 to begin on the second Sunday in March (or on the
> 14th for this year, which is in about two weeks)
Yup, and I added the necessary rule to Panda TOPS-20 on August 5, 2005.
You ought to have that version. If not and/or you have Digital TOPS-20,
you need to add two definitions:
SNDMAR==313+29+14-1 ; Second Sunday in March
FSTNOV==31+29+31+30+31+30+31+31+30+31+7-1 ; First Sunday in November
And then add the following new rule in front of the 1987 rule of the RULES
macro:
DST 2007,SNDMAR,FSTNOV ; 2005 Energy bill
For what it's worth, I am the author of edit 9098.
> However, it is also true that New York actually DID have DST after WWI
> so that its "financial exchanges could maintain an hour of arbitrage
> trading with London". It would also appear that this was also the
> case with "Chicago and Cleveland to keep pace with New York".
DST existed as a local option prior to the national standard in 1967. I
remember DST as a child in New Jersey in the early 1960s.
Referring to
ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2010b.tar.gz
the following seem to have been the DST rules for New York City:
DST 1946,LSTAPR,LSTOCT ; replace DST 1946,400,400
... WWII War Time rules...
DST 1921,LSTAPR,LSTOCT
DST 1920,LSTMAR,LSTOCT ; replace DST 1920,400,400
; or simply remove the 1920 entry
... WWI War Time rules...
Note as well that prior to 18 November 1883 12:03:58 New York City time
was UTC -4:56:02 instead of today's -05:00. TOPS-20 does not support
non-integral hour time zones.
> Since I live in New York
All due sympathy.
> Was it the last Sunday in March to the last Sunday in October like the
> first World War?
See above; it was in 1920, but then changed to the familiar "last Sunday
in April" rule.
> I noticed
> from another comment "that VAX/VMS doesn't (yet) have any algorithm
> for summer time!"
I was surprised/pleased that that snarky comment (which I also created)
got into the Digital sources. It was true as of 1987. I have no idea if
it was ever changed.
When I ported c-client to VMS in the early 1990s I was appalled to
discover that VMS had no clue about time zones at all. I wouldn't be at
all surprised if it never learned about DST, and simply set its time from
an operator's watch.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
1-Mar-2010 08:37:23-PST,3090;000000000000
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From: Carl Baltrunas <carl@restarea.com>
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Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 00:57:12 -0800
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On Feb 28, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
>> I noticed
>> from another comment "that VAX/VMS doesn't (yet) have any algorithm
>> for summer time!"
>
> When I ported c-client to VMS in the early 1990s I was appalled to
> discover that VMS had no clue about time zones at all. I wouldn't
> be at all surprised if it never learned about DST, and simply set
> its time from an operator's watch.
>
> -- Mark --
>
Not an authoritative answer, but I do not recall if *ANY* DEC PDP-11
operating system, RSTS/E, RT-11, RSX-11M had any understanding of time
except that entered by the operator at boot time. (It's been
awhile). An RSX-11M system networked via DecNet might have been able
to sync time, but I don't even know about that, since time was
typically entered at boot time.
Why should VMS be any different?
Of course, we know that Unix on the -11 knew about time zones, at
least at some point (don't know if it was in the first version).
Time to check that one out, because inquiring minds would like to
know...
-Carl
1-Mar-2010 09:06:24-PST,1766;000000000000
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To: Carl Baltrunas <carl@restarea.com>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:57:12 PST."
<F0C64150-E981-49A6-A930-7E8D70A9A417@restarea.com>
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--------
[Carl Baltrunas <carl@restarea.com> writes:]
> Of course, we know that Unix on the -11 knew about time zones, at
> least at some point (don't know if it was in the first version).
> Time to check that one out, because inquiring minds would like to
> know...
A timezone table is hard-coded in the C library module timezone.c
in V7. In fact, in an even rougher form it's present in V6.
Apparently the problem captured somebody's attention pretty early on...
Andy
2-Mar-2010 16:38:50-PST,2176;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
CC: slogin@acedsl.com, TOPS-20 Distribution: ;, TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com
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Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:00:00 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
> When I ported c-client to VMS in the early 1990s I was appalled to
> discover that VMS had no clue about time zones at all. I wouldn't be at
> all surprised if it never learned about DST, and simply set its time from
> an operator's watch.
Carl Baltrunas commented on the PDP-11 operating systems. I'll point out that
not even Tops-10 has any idea of DST, so why should the OSes for products with
fewer bits? :-) :-) :-)
Rich
2-Mar-2010 17:02:51-PST,2978;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:50:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> When I ported c-client to VMS in the early 1990s I was appalled to
>> discover that VMS had no clue about time zones at all. I wouldn't be at
>> all surprised if it never learned about DST, and simply set its time from
>> an operator's watch.
> Carl Baltrunas commented on the PDP-11 operating systems. I'll point out that
> not even Tops-10 has any idea of DST, so why should the OSes for products with
> fewer bits? :-) :-) :-)
The need for timezone and DST handling mainly came about due to email;
when you are exchanging email with systems in other timezones you need to
have some idea of the concept. Otherwise, it was alright if you set the
system time from the operator's watch at reboot.
Since ARPAnet was part of Tenex almost from inception, it is not
surprising that TOPS-20 had good timezone support. There were never many
TOPS-10 systems, and even fewer non-UNIX PDP-11 systems.
VMS was supposedly a networked system, so its absence of timezone support
is quite surprising.
I forget how we did time on WAITS. I don't recall any support for DST and
certainly not for timezones. IIRC, the system just was just moved ahead
an hour or moved back an hour, but I forget how it was done. I don't
remember setting the time at boot; I think that there was some sort of
battery-backed-up clock, but I have no idea how it was set.
Today, of course, many more things depend upon good time, and all but the
most basic of devices use NTP.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
2-Mar-2010 17:44:00-PST,5073;000000000000
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To: "'Mark Crispin'" <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>,
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:36:11 -0800
Subject: RE: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: RE: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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What a lot of people did with VMS is to use the support in Multinet (and PM=
DF) to deal with the DST. This took care of the NTP, DST transitions and =
email. I do recall that there was a bug in DECnet that if things got foule=
d up in the fall that you would lose DECnet connectivity for 1 hour after t=
he autumn transition. Normally this would work but it happen often enough =
that I would always check to make sure we didn't have any hiccups on any of=
the VMS Servers.
Bruce Edwards
bruce@u.washington.edu
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com [mailto:mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com] On Behalf =
Of Mark Crispin
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 4:50 PM
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> When I ported c-client to VMS in the early 1990s I was appalled to
>> discover that VMS had no clue about time zones at all. I wouldn't be at
>> all surprised if it never learned about DST, and simply set its time fro=
m
>> an operator's watch.
> Carl Baltrunas commented on the PDP-11 operating systems. I'll point out=
that
> not even Tops-10 has any idea of DST, so why should the OSes for products=
with
> fewer bits? :-) :-) :-)
The need for timezone and DST handling mainly came about due to email;=20
when you are exchanging email with systems in other timezones you need to=20
have some idea of the concept. Otherwise, it was alright if you set the=20
system time from the operator's watch at reboot.
Since ARPAnet was part of Tenex almost from inception, it is not=20
surprising that TOPS-20 had good timezone support. There were never many=20
TOPS-10 systems, and even fewer non-UNIX PDP-11 systems.
VMS was supposedly a networked system, so its absence of timezone support=20
is quite surprising.
I forget how we did time on WAITS. I don't recall any support for DST and=
=20
certainly not for timezones. IIRC, the system just was just moved ahead=20
an hour or moved back an hour, but I forget how it was done. I don't=20
remember setting the time at boot; I think that there was some sort of=20
battery-backed-up clock, but I have no idea how it was set.
Today, of course, many more things depend upon good time, and all but the=20
most basic of devices use NTP.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
3-Mar-2010 11:04:09-PST,2978;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:50:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on the impending daylight saving changeover
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On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> When I ported c-client to VMS in the early 1990s I was appalled to
>> discover that VMS had no clue about time zones at all. I wouldn't be at
>> all surprised if it never learned about DST, and simply set its time from
>> an operator's watch.
> Carl Baltrunas commented on the PDP-11 operating systems. I'll point out that
> not even Tops-10 has any idea of DST, so why should the OSes for products with
> fewer bits? :-) :-) :-)
The need for timezone and DST handling mainly came about due to email;
when you are exchanging email with systems in other timezones you need to
have some idea of the concept. Otherwise, it was alright if you set the
system time from the operator's watch at reboot.
Since ARPAnet was part of Tenex almost from inception, it is not
surprising that TOPS-20 had good timezone support. There were never many
TOPS-10 systems, and even fewer non-UNIX PDP-11 systems.
VMS was supposedly a networked system, so its absence of timezone support
is quite surprising.
I forget how we did time on WAITS. I don't recall any support for DST and
certainly not for timezones. IIRC, the system just was just moved ahead
an hour or moved back an hour, but I forget how it was done. I don't
remember setting the time at boot; I think that there was some sort of
battery-backed-up clock, but I have no idea how it was set.
Today, of course, many more things depend upon good time, and all but the
most basic of devices use NTP.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
6-Mar-2010 19:42:17-PST,1491;000000000000
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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:48:35 -0800
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com>
Subject: e-mail on the panda system
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14486599650.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com>
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When I use my panda system (local to me), I have in "hosts.txt"
the address for jsol-1.dyndns.org... That seems to be right.
When I send mail from MM, and MMAILR, it says "you have mail from
jsol at 192.168.36.20" and when I read it it says "fro
jsol@[192.168.36.20]...
jsol-1.dyndns.org is host 192.168.36.20.
let me know if you can help me with this.
--jsol
my host number is not the real host number, it is something which
I can use with a host address which my unix box knows. When
I connect using that number (by host number) it connects from
my linux box.
-------
6-Mar-2010 19:46:05-PST,1181;000000000000
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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 16:12:37 -0800
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com>
Subject: more on the panda system
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Message-ID: <14486604025.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com>
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When I finger, jsol1.dyndns.org or 192.168.36.20, it hangs and doesn't
do the right thing.
when I telnet to jsol1.dyndns.org it doesn't do anything, but when
I do telnet 192.168.36.20, it connects and when running systat
it says "foreign host jsol1.dyndns.org".
thanx
-------
11-May-2010 15:16:23-PDT,2086;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
Subject: Tops-10 filesystem query
Message-Id: <20100511215201.E66002424D@panix5.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:52:01 -0400 (EDT)
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Since this is one of the two major 36-bit fora available, and many people don't
read alt.sys.pdp10, I'll ask here even though it's not TOPS-20.
I've recently been posed a question regarding the antecedents to a filesystem
design, in particular whether "Tops-10 split disk" was an influence on the
design.
My personal history with Tops-10 only goes back to 2003, and nothing I've
encountered in my researches has used this term. I don't even know what it's
supposed to mean in this context (the person asking the question is only
PC-literate).
So: Was there ever something called a split disk in an early version of
Tops-10? Say, before the Level 5 disk changes? If so, what was it, and how
did it work?
Thanks,
Rich
11-May-2010 16:13:22-PDT,6501;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:56:36 -0400
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Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query (pdp10: to exclusive)
From: David Carr <S1022.xoxo@xoxy.net>
To: "Rich Alderson - tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com" <+pdp10+xoxo+6d61895162.tops-20#alderson.users.panix.com@spamgourmet.com>
Cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
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--000e0ce0b7260e551e04865970f2
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My only guess would be that the 10's boot disk had two filesystems (the 11
front end and Tops10's, so maybe you might consider it split between two
processors. I know its a stretch.
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Rich Alderson -
tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com <+pdp10+xoxo+6d61895162.tops-20#
alderson.users.panix.com@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> Since this is one of the two major 36-bit fora available, and many people
> don't
> read alt.sys.pdp10, I'll ask here even though it's not TOPS-20.
>
> I've recently been posed a question regarding the antecedents to a
> filesystem
> design, in particular whether "Tops-10 split disk" was an influence on the
> design.
>
> My personal history with Tops-10 only goes back to 2003, and nothing I've
> encountered in my researches has used this term. I don't even know what
> it's
> supposed to mean in this context (the person asking the question is only
> PC-literate).
>
> So: Was there ever something called a split disk in an early version of
> Tops-10? Say, before the Level 5 disk changes? If so, what was it, and
> how
> did it work?
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
>
>
--000e0ce0b7260e551e04865970f2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My only guess would be that the 10's boot disk had two filesystems (the=
11 front end and Tops10's, so maybe you might consider it split betwee=
n two processors.=A0 I know its a stretch.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Rich Alderson - <a href=3D"mailto:tops-20@=
alderson.users.panix.com">tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com</a> <span dir=3D=
"ltr"><+pdp10+xoxo+6d61895162.tops-20#<a href=3D"http://alderson.users.p=
anix.com">alderson.users.panix.com</a>@<a href=3D"http://spamgourmet.com">s=
pamgourmet.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Since this is one=
of the two major 36-bit fora available, and many people don't<br>
read alt.sys.pdp10, I'll ask here even though it's not TOPS-20.<br>
<br>
I've recently been posed a question regarding the antecedents to a file=
system<br>
design, in particular whether "Tops-10 split disk" was an influen=
ce on the<br>
design.<br>
<br>
My personal history with Tops-10 only goes back to 2003, and nothing I'=
ve<br>
encountered in my researches has used this term. =A0I don't even know w=
hat it's<br>
supposed to mean in this context (the person asking the question is only<br=
>
PC-literate).<br>
<br>
So: =A0Was there ever something called a split disk in an early version of<=
br>
Tops-10? =A0Say, before the Level 5 disk changes? =A0If so, what was it, an=
d how<br>
did it work?<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Thanks,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0Rich<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><div style=3D"visibility: hidden; display: in=
line;" id=3D"avg_ls_inline_popup"></div><style type=3D"text/css">#avg_ls_in=
line_popup { position:absolute; z-index:9999; padding: 0px 0px; margin-=
left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; width: 240px; overflow: hidden; word-wrap: =
break-word; color: black; font-size: 10px; text-align: left; line-heigh=
t: 13px;}</style>
--000e0ce0b7260e551e04865970f2--
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To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 May 2010 17:52:01 EDT."
<20100511215201.E66002424D@panix5.panix.com>
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--------
[Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:]
> ...
> I've recently been posed a question regarding the antecedents to a filesystem
> design, in particular whether "Tops-10 split disk" was an influence on the
> design.
Be aware that often such queries are on behalf of patent attorneys doing
research for their litigation. If you show expertise which applies to such
litigation, you will be subpoenaed (potentially by both sides, if you aren't
cooperative) and get to experience the pleasant ritual known as a deposition.
If you're very lucky, you'll also be ordered to serve as a witness during the
actual trial. None of this requires any compensation, BTW--technically,
you're on the hook to cover your own expenses relating to the court orders.
Consider this carefully when discussing prior art when you don't know what
the background of the questioner is. Or go right ahead, if you enjoy being
examined by hostile attorneys.
Andy Valencia
11-May-2010 17:56:42-PDT,1809;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: pdp10.xoxo@xoxy.net
CC: tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com, tops-20@lingling.panda.com
In-reply-to: <AANLkTikE3ZQlOOFXvi74zrBUdaQXk5mEZca1FYqBAmnl@mail.gmail.com>
(pdp10.xoxo@xoxy.net)
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
References: <20100511215201.E66002424D@panix5.panix.com> <AANLkTikE3ZQlOOFXvi74zrBUdaQXk5mEZca1FYqBAmnl@mail.gmail.com>
Message-Id: <20100512003944.8A3EB2424D@panix5.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:39:44 -0400 (EDT)
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ReSent-Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
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> Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:56:36 -0400
> From: pdp10.xoxo@xoxy.net
> My only guess would be that the 10's boot disk had two filesystems (the 11
> front end and Tops10's, so maybe you might consider it split between two
> processors. I know its a stretch.
That's KL-10 specific, and about 10 years too late.
Thanks,
Rich
11-May-2010 19:43:30-PDT,3388;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <mail@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
In-reply-to: <20100511230046.ADADBABBD3@vsta.org> (message from Andy Valencia
on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT))
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
References: <20100511230046.ADADBABBD3@vsta.org>
Message-Id: <20100512021553.4EDC82424E@panix5.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:15:53 -0400 (EDT)
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> From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
> Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> [Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:]
>> ... I've recently been posed a question regarding the antecedents to a
>> filesystem design, in particular whether "Tops-10 split disk" was an
>> influence on the design.
> Be aware that often such queries are on behalf of patent attorneys doing
> research for their litigation.
I'm not sure whether Mr. Valencia is attempting to warn me against the person
asking me the question, or to warn the subscribers to Mark's mailing list
against *me*.
If the former, thanks, but I know precisely who, and why, the question is being
asked. I'm simply trying to increase my own knowledge so that I can give an
informed answer.
If the latter, I'm greatly offended. I've been a subscriber to this list for
years and years, and acquainted with a number of the other subscribers for
decades. Anyone who cares to can find me posting on PDP-10 (and other) topics
as alderson@*.stanford.edu, alderson@netcom.com, and alderson@*.panix.com since
the 1980s in relevant newsgroups. I currently work in a museum restoring
vintage mainframes to working order and running them for public access; the
question came up in that context.
I hope that my friends and acquaintances know me well enough to dismiss the
implied slander of my good name, and will answer if they know anything on the
topic--and that those who don't know me will at least accept that Mark would
not allow this mailing list to be used for the nefarious purpose ascribed to
me.
Thanks,
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
mailto:RichA@Vulcan.com
mailto:RichA@LivingComputerMuseum.org
11-May-2010 20:01:23-PDT,1948;000000000000
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To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 May 2010 22:15:53 EDT."
<20100512021553.4EDC82424E@panix5.panix.com>
Message-Id: <20100512025229.85A92ABBD3@vsta.org>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
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--------
[Rich Alderson <mail@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:]
> I hope that my friends and acquaintances know me well enough to dismiss the
> implied slander of my good name, and will answer if they know anything on the
> topic--and that those who don't know me will at least accept that Mark would
> not allow this mailing list to be used for the nefarious purpose ascribed to
> me.
Posing questions to historical technology lists for purposes of developing
litigation is neither evil nor nefarious. So having me pattern match on a
query which looked very much like such a question can hardly be slander. It
sure didn't *look* like a typical question for this list. To me, it looked
exactly like a search for prior art.
Andy Valencia
12-May-2010 18:05:20-PDT,5953;000000000000
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From: Carl Baltrunas <carl@restarea.com>
To: Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <20100511215201.E66002424D@panix5.panix.com>
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
References: <20100511215201.E66002424D@panix5.panix.com>
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Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:29:21 -0700
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Hi Rich,
As one of the resident TOPS-10 experts, I would have to say that I
don't recall
anyone calling the capabilities on TOPS-10 disk structures, "split
disk". So,
I think there needs to be a little more context other than whether
that phrase
by itself has any basis for being an influence on the design of any
other file
structure.
Especially when they talk about level 5 disk changes.
My understanding of the TOPS-10 timeline, was that the level 4 series
monitors
were DECtape based, and level 5 was when they moved to disk drives.
But my
knowledge in that area is 2nd-hand from conversations about the
origins of the
OS changes made by the company, On-Line Systems out of Pittsburgh PA,
to modify
early 4 series TOPS-10 for service bureau use. Level 3 may have been
DECtape,
level 4 switching to a single disk structure, and level 5 when
multiple disk
volumes were available. That sounds more like the right timeline.
As for multi-volume disks, if memory serves me, I had only seen one or
two actual
instances of anyone using the capability to increase the size of a
single volume
as a single structure under TOPS-10. I believe it had the capability
to use two
or more physical volumes, and they did not have to be identical disks.
We tried it
at least one time, but as people were already used to using multiple
volumes, or
only had quota on a single volume, it wasn't very useful or necessary
for larger
structures at the time.
At CUA on the 5.03C monitor, we had multiple disk structures, e.g.
DSKA:, DSKB:,
DSKC:, and SCRA:, running on separate RP02 - RP04 spindles. We also
had a swapping
drum at one time but that went away at some point. Several 5.xx
series monitors had
issues which caused CUA not to upgrade, and I recall upgrading to
5.04, 5.06, 5.07,
and then later to 6.03 and 6.03A, skipping the other interim releases.
TYMCOMM-X, on the other hand, diverged from TOPS-10 at the 5.02
release which still
only had a single (reliable) disk structure. I was quite familiar
with the ONCE-only
module which was fairly similar to the same module from TOPS-10. On
TYMCOMM-X we
still used a single disk structure, DSKB:, with as many as 32 disk
spindles using
combinations of IBM 3330/3360 and memorex 6250 disks.
So, back to the original question? What did the questioner mean by
"split disk" and
in what context was the questioner asking if capabilities in TOPS-10
may have influenced
another disk file structure. (Especially someone PC centric?)
Disclaimer: DEC sales literature would be a better source of
information than my
memory as far as what disk services were available at different
Monitor versions.
Much of what I've said here would be hear say as far as any legal
proceedings.
That said, examining the source code, available on magnetic tape at
the CHM would
be definitive other than finding a source from DEC.
And, just a short note on the legal/patent issue. I don't think Andy
was attacking
you Rich, but I can see how it might have been taken that way out of
context. Just MHO.
-Carl
On May 11, 2010, at 2:52 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Since this is one of the two major 36-bit fora available, and many
> people don't
> read alt.sys.pdp10, I'll ask here even though it's not TOPS-20.
>
> I've recently been posed a question regarding the antecedents to a
> filesystem
> design, in particular whether "Tops-10 split disk" was an influence
> on the
> design.
>
> My personal history with Tops-10 only goes back to 2003, and nothing
> I've
> encountered in my researches has used this term. I don't even know
> what it's
> supposed to mean in this context (the person asking the question is
> only
> PC-literate).
>
> So: Was there ever something called a split disk in an early
> version of
> Tops-10? Say, before the Level 5 disk changes? If so, what was it,
> and how
> did it work?
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
14-May-2010 11:58:09-PDT,1843;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com>
To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
In-reply-to: <B2DE5613-A19E-402F-9EDA-7D68C5708ACC@restarea.com> (message from
Carl Baltrunas on Wed, 12 May 2010 17:29:21 -0700)
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
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Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the comments I've received on "split disk" (all
agreeing with me that they never heard of it).
I'm also sorry that I took Andy Valencia's comment as an (implied) attack. I
apologize for that.
Thanks,
Rich
14-May-2010 12:16:45-PDT,1599;000000000000
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To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com
From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Tops-10 filesystem query
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 May 2010 13:57:27 EDT."
<20100514175727.1CFAD2425A@panix5.panix.com>
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--------
[Rich Alderson <tops-20@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:]
> I'm also sorry that I took Andy Valencia's comment as an (implied) attack. I
> apologize for that.
I'm sorry if the way I wrote my comments made it seem that way. I have
certainly benefited from people's willingness to share their knowledge of old
DEC technology, and appreciate the availability of such help.
Regards,
Andy
17-May-2010 08:12:32-PDT,1476;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Subject: 27 years ago today...
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...a dark day for the TOPS-20 world. Yet this mailing list shows that
there are still many of us who care after all these years.
It is an incredible tribute to the design excellence of the PDP-10 that an
architecture that was only around for 19 years (1964-1983) still has such
impact.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
30-Jul-2010 00:38:49-PDT,1161;000000000000
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Mail-From: MRC created at 30-Jul-2010 00:34:37
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:34:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Subject: Lingling has a new CPU
To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM
Pithy-Thought: TOPS-20 was a great improvement over its successors
Message-ID: <14524695369.10.MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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After 9 years of service, the motherboard for the CPU that hosted Lingling
came to the end of its useful life. I've build a new home for Lingling on
an old Compaq Presario that I picked up dirt cheap. Lingling is now 20 times
faster than a 2065 instead of merely 16 times faster.
I wonder how much faster a modern CPU is?
-------
30-Jul-2010 08:24:19-PDT,3096;000000000000
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From: John Francini <francini@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Lingling has a new CPU
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:08:01 -0400
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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I've been meaning to figure that out one of these days. I'm now working for Dell EqualLogic in the old ZKO building in Nashua. I'm surrounded by tons of servers running linux on the latest hyperthreaded processors. I wonder what either OS would perform like if the 'microengine' under it had an entire CPU for each of the KLH processes.
On the -10 side, makes me further wonder how hard it would be to put in SMP support. It would be fun to be able to emulate the largest SMP installation--ORNL in Tennessee, six processors--in a single 1U rack space server.
John
--
John Francini <francini@mac.com>
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace; that two are called a law firm; and that three or more become a Congress. And by God I have had *this* Congress!" --John Adams
On Jul 30, 2010, at 3:34, Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM> wrote:
> After 9 years of service, the motherboard for the CPU that hosted Lingling
> came to the end of its useful life. I've build a new home for Lingling on
> an old Compaq Presario that I picked up dirt cheap. Lingling is now 20 times
> faster than a 2065 instead of merely 16 times faster.
>
> I wonder how much faster a modern CPU is?
> -------
>
30-Jul-2010 08:36:16-PDT,1439;000000000000
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To: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Lingling has a new CPU
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:34:37 PDT."
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--------
[Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM> writes:]
> I wonder how much faster a modern CPU is?
CPU bound with a large memory bandwidth component, 2-4X probably. I don't
know exactly how decrepit that Presario CPU is....
Andy Valencia
30-Jul-2010 08:37:43-PDT,1658;000000000000
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On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Andy Valencia wrote:
> CPU bound with a large memory bandwidth component, 2-4X probably. I don't
> know exactly how decrepit that Presario CPU is....
/proc/cpuinfo reports that it is a Celeron at 2.70GHz; and as a PDP-10 it
is 20 times faster than a 2065. The departed machine was an Athlon 1700+
and was 16 times faster.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
30-Jul-2010 08:50:33-PDT,1713;000000000000
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To: Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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From: Andy Valencia <ajv-ckendendum@vsta.org>
Subject: Re: Lingling has a new CPU
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 Jul 2010 08:29:10 PDT."
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--------
[Mark Crispin <MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM> writes:]
> /proc/cpuinfo reports that it is a Celeron at 2.70GHz; and as a PDP-10 it
> is 20 times faster than a 2065. The departed machine was an Athlon 1700+
> and was 16 times faster.
I moved from that class of processor to an Intel consumer class i7, and saw
better than 3X on a memory-intensive app (i.e., memory working set quite a
bit bigger than cache). If you went for a top-of-the-line server chip you
might see more than 5X.
Andy
1-Aug-2010 13:19:00-PDT,2269;000000000000
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Since I don't do any real monitor hacking to speak of, my system tends
to stay up for months at a time. For example, right now I've been up
since May 6th. That's a shame because I had actually been up since
November 29th of 2009 (I mistakenly shut off the power while doing a
routine UPS test)
All that being the case, user jobs on my system tend to stay logged in
for months at a time. The job that I'm writing this on has been
signed in for over 1,609 hours. Sometimes when such jobs log out, I
get an unexpected LOGOUT message:
Killed Job 10, User SABER, TTY44 Doppio, at 21-Jul-2010 14:31:19
Used 0:00:18 in 221:58:27; used this session 0:00:10 in 169:15:29
What is this session stuff? I thought you only got it when you
changed accounts or set a session remark? Or do you get an automatic
session record every so often?
1-Aug-2010 13:24:23-PDT,1359;000000000000
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IIRC, the session changes when a job is detached and attached again.
-- Mark --
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3-Sep-2010 14:45:12-PDT,7098;000000000000
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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 17:22:44 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@optonline.net>
Subject: CREF deletes input files
To: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
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Problem:
========
Certain .CRF input files are ALWAYS deleted by CREF, even if the
/P switch exists in the SWITCH.INI file and is given after every
single file in the command list.
The behavior only happens when giving multiple input files. Every
file except the output file and the last input file is deleted.
Example:
========
@Compile /Compile /Cref /NoBinary /Macro EFTPSu,EFTPSh,EFTPSr,EFTPSs,EFTPSt,EFTPSc,EFTPSv,EFTPSa,EFTPSz
MACRO: EFTPSU
MACRO: EFTPSH
MACRO: EFTPSR
MACRO: EFTPSS
MACRO: EFTPST
MACRO: EFTPSC
MACRO: EFTPSV
MACRO: EFTPSA
MACRO: EFTPSZ
EXIT
@dir EFTPS%.crf
STAR:<FTP>
EFTPSA.CRF.1
EFTPSC.CRF.1
EFTPSH.CRF.1
EFTPSR.CRF.1
EFTPSS.CRF.1
EFTPST.CRF.1
EFTPSU.CRF.1
EFTPSV.CRF.1
EFTPSZ.CRF.1
Total of 1922 pages in 9 files
@typE (FILE) swiTCH.INI.1
CREF/P
@r (PROGRAM) ps:<subsyS>cref.EXE.1
*EFTPSR/p=EFTPSu/P, EFTPSh/P, EFTPSr/P, EFTPSs/P, EFTPSt/P, EFTPSc/P, EFTPSv/P, EFTPSa/P, EFTPSz/p
[CRFXKC 83K core]
[Fork CREF opening SWITCH.INI.1 for reading]
*^Z
@dir EFTPS%.crf
STAR:<FTP>
EFTPSZ.CRF.1
Total of 8 pages in 1 file
@dir EFTPS%.crf,
@@delete
@@
STAR:<FTP>
EFTPSA.CRF.1
EFTPSC.CRF.1
EFTPSH.CRF.1
EFTPSR.CRF.1
EFTPSS.CRF.1
EFTPST.CRF.1
EFTPSU.CRF.1
EFTPSV.CRF.1
Total of 1914 pages in 8 files
@
I have only been able to verify this on PANDA CREF, which appears
to have already had some Stanford modifications. I didn't have a
Digital CREF handy.
Workaround:
===========
Use MIC to undelete the deleted input files or to make copies of
them beforehand.
Documentation:
==============
This is (or was) a known issue. In particular, the following
(reformatted) information is of interest in CREF.DOC:
2.3 Multiple Input Files
When multiple input files are specified to CREF, all files in
the command string (the input files, of course) will now be
deleted. Formerly, only the last file specified got deleted.
Due to the vagaries of CREF's command scanner, all processing
switches (e.g., "/O" or "/K") must be given no later than the
first input file spec. Switches such as "/A" and "/B" work on
the individual file spec to which they are attached.
Note especially that to preserve the input files (if they are
not otherwise protected against being deleted) the "/P" switch
must be specified no later than the first complete file spec!
Background:
===========
I use CREF a lot for the Extended Mode FTP server. Since the
source MACRO files are a large, the resulting .CRF files are huge
and, even on a faster machine, it takes time to (re)generate them.
I never want them deleted.
I had stumbled over this around 2000 and, although I was careful
to try putting the /P switch in many strategic positions (see
above), I still couldn't make it work right. Irked, I had
initially glanced through the CREF parsing code and rapidly came
to the conclusion that it was intricate enough that I would never
be able to figure it out. I just lived with the MIC file.
Recently, I managed to delete my .CRF files and, since building a
cross referenced listing (I.E., no generated binaries) from
scratch now takes 5 and half minutes, I got annoyed enough so that
I decided to have another look.
Analysis:
=========
It would appear that this issue had been worked on a number of
times in the past (1976!). The following (edited) lines from
CREF.MAC are of interest:
;50 DELETE ALL FILES IF MULTIPLE INPUT 05-MAY-76
;53 [50] OVERZEALOUS, DELETE ONLY EXT OF .CRF, .LST 08-DEC-76
Previously, files had been deleted only in CCLFN. The parsed /P
switch sets a flag (IOPROT) in the IO register, which is dutifully
checked. Certain flags are reset to the values of the first
parsed input file after each file is processed. Thus, subsequent
/P values are overwritten with the first value (with a BLT in
READ5).
Edit 53 changed Edit 50 to further handle deletion of input files.
The code is checking the wrong register for IOPROT. As a result,
all input files are deleted except the last one, which is handled
by CCLFN.
Cure:
=====
Used the correct register (IO). Judging from the surrounding
code, my guess is that this was a simple typo.
File 1) DSK:CREF.MAC[4,145] created: 1557 03-Sep-10
File 2) T:CREF.MAC[4,124] created: 0644 16-Oct-89
1)1 ;[TOMMYT]STAR:<CREF>CREF.MAC.2, 30-Aug-2010 23:22:05, Edit by SLOGIN
1) ;[T54] Fix CREF to respect the /P switch and NOT DELETE FILES!
1) TITLE CREF %53C(102) CROSS REFERENCE PROGRAM
****
2)1 TITLE CREF %53C(102) CROSS REFERENCE PROGRAM
**************
1)1 VWHO==7 ;WHO MADE EDIT ;[T54] Customer made edit
1) VMINOR==3 ;MINOR VERSION NUMBER
1) VEDIT==103 ;EDIT NUMBER ;[T54] Bump edit number
1) INTERNAL .JBVER
****
2)1 VWHO==0 ;WHO MADE EDIT
2) VMINOR==3 ;MINOR VERSION NUMBER
2) VEDIT==102 ;EDIT NUMBER
2) INTERNAL .JBVER
**************
1)52 TLNE IO,IOPROT ;[T54] ;[53] AND USER DIDN'T TYPE "/P"?
1) JRST READ6 ;[53] DO NOT DELETE INPUT FILE
****
2)52 TLNE 1,IOPROT ;[53] AND USER DIDN'T TYPE "/P"?
2) JRST READ6 ;[53] DO NOT DELETE INPUT FILE
**************
3-Sep-2010 14:51:06-PDT,1466;000000000000
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To: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@optonline.net>
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Subject: Re: CREF deletes input files
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On Fri, 3 Sep 2010, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> ;53 [50] OVERZEALOUS, DELETE ONLY EXT OF .CRF, .LST 08-DEC-76
Wow, just shy of 34 years to fix that bug!
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
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5-Sep-2010 21:22:21-PDT,2603;000000000000
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On Fri, 3 Sep 2010, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2010, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> > ;53 [50] OVERZEALOUS, DELETE ONLY EXT OF .CRF, .LST 08-DEC-76
>
> Wow, just shy of 34 years to fix that bug!
And only 42 to go before if falls over due to date overflow. :-)
But I don't see the value in preserving .CRF files long-term, anyway.
What you *should* do with a .CRF file is immediately convert it to a .LST
file, which is both more useful and smaller, and keep *that*. Of course
it helps when you've fixed COMPIL to run CREF automatically when /C is
given, and CREF to default the output to DSK: instead of LPT:. :-)
Fred Wright
5-Sep-2010 21:32:20-PDT,1711;000000000001
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On Sun, 5 Sep 2010, Fred Wright wrote:
> And only 42 to go before if falls over due to date overflow. :-)
That's right, TOPS-10's DATE75 fix expires in 2052, doesn't it? At least
it outlasted UNIX time...
Of course, TOPS-20 time doesn't expire until 2576. Heh heh heh.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
8-Sep-2010 22:19:29-PDT,4585;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 00:38:46 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: CREF deletes input files
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> But I don't see the value in preserving .CRF files long-term,
> anyway.
I'm not sure I understand where you're going with that.
If you are using CREF for a number of single files (exactly one .CRF
per listing), then, Yes, there is little sense in keeping the .CRF
file. When you give the /C switch to the EXEC, the TMPCOR file that
it produces for CREF's CCL entry looks like this:
=STAR:FILE1
=STAR:FILE2
=STAR:FILE3
If you take CREF and start it at the CCL entry, it will then process
each file, one at a time and create seperate listings. However, this
is almost NEVER what I want.
1) I want a combined listing because then CREF puts a complete
cross reference of symbols from every module in the end. This
is what is invaluable for debugging.
2) I see no reason to waste the CPU, disk and wall time re-CREF
files that have not been touched in years or are not being
actively edited. This is certainly the case with Galaxy.
In order to get 1), I need to have .CRF files for each module and I
don't want 2).
> What you *should* do with a .CRF file is immediately convert it to a
> .LST file,
Only if you're editing and CREF'ing a single file at a time. If you
have a number of .CRF 'input' files that are going into a combined
listing and are only concentrating on one file, then makes more sense
(to me) to not regenerate every .CRF file. This is almost entirely
what I do.
> which is both more useful and smaller, and keep *that*.
Indeed. For the EXEC, the combined .CRF files (27) are 2,137 pages
while the list file is 1,921 pages. For the extended mode server, the
totals are 1,923 pages of .CRF and 1.631 pages for the listing file,
309 pages if you just want the symbols (which has the advantage of
being able to fit into a Tops-20 EMACS).
> Of course it helps when you've fixed COMPIL to run CREF
> automatically when /C is given, and CREF to default the output to
> DSK: instead of LPT:.
I actually had some thoughts about changing COMPIL (the EXEC, really).
I think /CREF should function something like standard compile behavior
for binary files (I.E., when the /COMPILE switch is NOT used). That
is, the .CRF file should only be (re)generated when it is older than
the source file.
Given a command like "Compile /NoBinary /Cref /List FILE1,FILE2,FIL3",
a TMPCOR file like this is generated:
=STAR:FILE1
=STAR:FILE2
=STAR:FILE3
Assuming that the binary files are to be combined into a single
executable, my feelings is that it is more useful to have:
=STAR:FILE1,STAR:FILE2,STAR:FILE3
In other words, CREF for multiple input files should probably function
using the same paradigm as a LOAD command for binaries. When using
MAKE for building cross references under Unix, this is how I set up
the dependencies. Ditto OS/2 and Windows.
8-Sep-2010 22:20:56-PDT,6133;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 00:40:17 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: CREF deletes input files
In-reply-to: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1009052121540.372@hsinghsing.panda.com>
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> That's right, TOPS-10's DATE75 fix expires in 2052, doesn't it? At
> least it outlasted UNIX time...
Does this mean that my DECtapes won't work after then?
> Of course, TOPS-20 time doesn't expire until 2576. Heh heh heh.
Indeed. Regrettably however, it would appear that not all Tops-20
applications, CUSPs and systems programs are going to do the right
thing in about two hundred years (207, see below).
In particular, it must be very carefully kept in mind that the system
time is stored as a fixed point fractional UNsigned 36 bit word (I.E.,
positive significand only; no exponent). This has many ramifications.
For those of us who do not have MRC's identic memory, it is useful to
briefly review the following from MONCAL:
1.3 SYSTEM DATE AND TIME
The internal system date and time is a 36-bit quantity. It can be
passed to a monitor call as an argument, or returned as a value.
The internal date-and-time word has the following format:
day,,n
where day is the number of days since November 17, 1858, and *n is
the fractional part of the day elapsed since midnight, Greenwich
Mean n Time. n is the numerator of a fraction that has a
denominator of 2**18. Thus the fraction:
*n/2**18
represents the portion of the day elapsed since midnight.
I really only had a very dim idea of what this meant until I took
WPI's Numerical Analysis course (fondly known as NUM's, locally).
However, when dealing with the above format, the following facts then
become relevant (the list is not exhaustive):
1) The PDP-10 does not have direct instructions for unsigned
36 bit comparison.
2) The PDP-10 does not have direct instructions for signed double
word comparison (70 bit) signed comparison.
3) 1/2**18 or 1/262,144 or 1/<1,,000000> or (approximately?)
0.000003814697265625 are thus the smallest increments of a
day. For one day's worth of seconds, the smallest increment
is NOT THE SAME as 1/3 of a second! It is 86,400/262,144
seconds or about 0.32958984375 seconds.
The ramifications of this are then as follows:
1) Calculations which result in comparisons of dates around
Saturday, September 27, 2217 8:00:00PM-EDT need to be handled
appropriately because the numbers can look 'negative'.
This is, of course, assumes that daylight saving time hasn't
changed again. Given current trends, one might hypothesise
that we'll be down to two months of Eastern Standard Time by
then...
2) Calculations which involve large number of times may have
off-by-one cumulative errors which could become significant.
Why care about this? 200 years is not an Impending Catastrophe and
we're only talking about a very small difference. Well...
1) Bragging rights. I seldom pass up the opportunity to gripe
about how the rest of the planet always seems to have some
problem with time (and FTP, for that matter).
2) User happiness. In some cases, having a time ordered list be
incorrect resulted in complaints.
One example was when printers would go down at the end of the
semester. Anxious students kept CAREFUL track of who printed
what and when in order to make deadlines. Given the very long
queues that would build up (even if the printer were fixed in
two hours), tempers could get very short.
One might think of other instances where getting it wrong
could have disastrous results: patient dosage schedules,
orbital corrections, train schedules, etc.
3) In some cases, doing the fixed point math as a simple
proportion, which is then converted at the end can result in
faster code.
4) If you've ever had NUMs or something like it, this isn't all
that difficult.
5) Becoming annoyed at seeing it done The Wrong Way (Guilty!).
6) My duncecap hope that, sooner or later, the world is going to
come to its collective senses and (re)embrace Tops-20...
7) Eh, why not?
Given that any one of these of this might be a good reason for Getting
It Right, whenever I come across code that does the wrong thing, I fix
it. However, unless it results in gross errors, I usually don't
bother MRC with such things.
However, I do have a few Quasar patches that I'm going to post,
anyway...
8-Sep-2010 22:22:23-PDT,4288;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 00:41:31 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <slogin@optonline.net>
Subject: How to become a CREF Hero
To: Tops-20 Wizards <TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com>
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CREF has actually been on my list of things to rewrite in extended
addressing mode for quite some time for many reasons.
CREF'ing the entire EXEC (whose combined .CRF files total 2,137 pages)
uses 113K Core. I don't think that I am approaching CREF's final
memory limits, yet. The high-segment is higher in the address space
than usual (page 560 as opposed to 400). I think the current limit
might be in the neighborhood of 180 K Core.
It's possible that I might squeeze some more room out of CREF by
putting the high segment even further up in the address space and
moving some stuff out of the low segment (HELPER.REL). It looks like
I might get about another 30K out of it before I bumped into PA1050.
So, the total would now be around 210K.
It's still not enough for some things. I can't CREF the entire
monitor (which is what I was trying to do when I bumped into the
limitation in the first place). It runs out of memory after the
twenty first (21) .CRF file. But I'm asking it to cross reference
15,548 disk pages of .CRF files...
It might not be that hard to rewrite CREF. A brief glace through the
source code shows that over half of it is devoted to command handling,
CCL and SWITCH.INI. This code has been reworked over the years
(perhaps extensively) and it shows in the edit log. CREF can't handle
white space for some file specifications:: "FOO" works, but " FOO"
doesn't. MACRO can handle this, for example.
A lot of code also still exists for direct device management: magtape
positioning, DECtape, etc. Maybe tossing some of the core management
routines along with this might get total down to 40% of the original
source code.
One assumes that using the winning Tops-20 JSYS interface would save
me a great deal of the above, although--knowing myself--I would
probably spend too much time on the COMND% parsing to make sure that
everything was Just Perfect. I tend to do this.
The .CRF source format is documented (Tops-10 notebooks, Volume 13).
I'd have to either understand the algorithms in CREF or write my own.
The symbol table code would be difficult (for me). There are specific
cautions about its complexity. For example, in the SORT routine:
This sort routine should not be approached as a trivial
programming example. This is coded for speed and compactness,
not clarity.
Probably what I'd do is simply jettison all the code for compactness,
turn the time/space knob all the way over to space and flagrantly use
moby memory (what I do in the FTP server) and not obsess about the
processor time.
Doing the monitor (see above) involves processing 30 sections of input
which will still fit on a KL. But doubt I'd need anywhere near that
much at once. Most importantly, I have come up with a good name for
the new program: CRUFT. :-)
9-Sep-2010 13:31:36-PDT,2463;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:12:39 -0700
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The sort isn't all that complicated.
LSORT is the recursive merge sort for lists that
I described in chapter 24. Add to that a little
loop to merge the resulting collection of sorted
lists and you have it. Wouldn't be too hard to
jack up into a non-zero section. But remember
to initialize the pointer register used in PUSH
to have an extended address.
I haven't worked on that program for 36 years.
I won't resume now.
Ralph
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20-Dec-2010 15:58:21-PST,1002;000000000000
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Mail-From: MRC created at 20-Dec-2010 15:54:27
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:47:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Ling Ling <noreply@Lingling.Panda.COM>
Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day!
To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM
Message-ID: <14562359116.13.LingLing@Lingling.Panda.COM>
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Hi! This is Ling Ling.
Normally, I don't get to send email all by myself. I'm too busy
being a 24/7 TOPS-20 system. But since today's DEC-20 Day, I
wanted to wish you and yours a Happy DEC-20 Day.
-- Ling Ling, Panda's TOPS-20 system
-------
8-Feb-2011 09:35:01-PST,1701;000000000000
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From: "Dawson, Clive" <clive.dawson@amd.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 03:19 -0600
To: 'tops-20@panda.com'
Subject: Kenneth H. Olsen (1926 - 2011)
X-ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:31:22 -0800 (PST)
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For those of you who haven't heard, Ken Olsen has died.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/technology/business-computing/08olsen.html?_r=2&emc=eta1
http://www.decconnection.org/index.html
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/020711-kenneth-olsen-dec-obit.html?hpg1=bn
etc...
R.I.P.
--Clive Dawson
8-Feb-2011 10:49:08-PST,2651;000000000000
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These stories appeared today:
Digital Equipment Corp. co-founder Ken Olsen dies at age 84
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9208601/Digital_Equipment_Corp._co_founder_Ken_Olsen_dies_at_age_84
http://blogs.computerworld.com/17781/dec_co_founder_ken_olsen_dies_at_84?
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Here are two more stories, and a comment:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/02/08/computer_pioneer_ken_olsen_dies/
http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2011/02/07/daily16-Ken-Olsen-co-founder-of-DEC-died-at-84.html
>> ...
>> Patrick Renouvel <prenouvel@yahoo.fr> on the simh list:
>>
>> He came to visit us in France in the middle of the Eighties.
>>
>> When the guardian at the entry asked him what was his badge number.
>>
>> He answered in French UN (One)
>>
>> In French it can be understood as HEIN (means I didn't understand)
>>
>> So the poor guardian repeated several times the question before
>> understanding what happened.
>> ...
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Subject: Re: [tops-20] more Ken Olsen stories
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Ken was ultimately the reason how I came to live my life and build my
career.
I gather that most participants of this list can agree.
We lost an extraordinary creator who helped bring change of an unforseen
magnitude.
/Lars
Nelson H. F. Beebe skrev 2011-02-08 19:01:
> Here are two more stories, and a comment:
>
> http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/02/08/computer_pioneer_ken_olsen_dies/
>
> http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2011/02/07/daily16-Ken-Olsen-co-founder-of-DEC-died-at-84.html
>
>>> ...
>>> Patrick Renouvel<prenouvel@yahoo.fr> on the simh list:
>>>
>>> He came to visit us in France in the middle of the Eighties.
>>>
>>> When the guardian at the entry asked him what was his badge number.
>>>
>>> He answered in French UN (One)
>>>
>>> In French it can be understood as HEIN (means I didn't understand)
>>>
>>> So the poor guardian repeated several times the question before
>>> understanding what happened.
>>> ...
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
> - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
10-Feb-2011 11:37:20-PST,9258;000000000000
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Here are two more Ken Olsen URLs:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/17787/thanks_for_the_memories_mr_olsen?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/technology/business-computing/08olsen.html?_r=1&ref=obituaries
Because the New York Times quickly hides its article content, here is
a copy of the second URL contents for our list records, with Unicode
quotes changed to ASCII equivalents:
>> ...
>> Ken Olsen, Who Built DEC Into a Power, Dies at 84
>> By GLENN RIFKIN
>> Published: February 7, 2011
>>
>> Ken Olsen, who helped reshape the computer industry as a founder of
>> the Digital Equipment Corporation, at one time the world's
>> second-largest computer company, died on Sunday. He was 84.
>>
>> His family announced the death but declined to provide further
>> details. He had recently lived with a daughter in Indiana and had been
>> a longtime resident of Lincoln, Mass.
>>
>> Mr. Olsen, who was proclaimed ``America's most successful
>> entrepreneur'' by Fortune magazine in 1986, built Digital on $70,000
>> in seed money, founding it with a partner in 1957 in the small Boston
>> suburb of Maynard, Mass. With Mr. Olsen as its chief executive, it
>> grew to employ more than 120,000 people at operations in more than 95
>> countries, surpassed in size only by I.B.M.
>>
>> At its peak, in the late 1980s, Digital had $14 billion in sales and
>> ranked among the most profitable companies in the nation.
>>
>> But its fortunes soon declined after Digital began missing out on some
>> critical market shifts, particularly toward the personal
>> computer. Mr. Olsen was criticized as autocratic and resistant to new
>> trends. ``The personal computer will fall flat on its face in
>> business,'' he said at one point. And in July 1992, the company's
>> board forced him to resign.
>>
>> Six years later, Digital, or DEC, as the company was known, was
>> acquired by the Compaq Computer Corporation for $9.6 billion.
>>
>> But for 35 years the enigmatic Mr. Olsen oversaw an expanding
>> technology giant that produced some of the computer industry's
>> breakthrough ideas.
>>
>> In a tribute to him in 2006, Bill Gates, the Microsoft co-founder,
>> called Mr. Olsen ``one of the true pioneers of computing,'' adding,
>> ``He was also a major influence on my life.''
>>
>> Mr. Gates traced his interest in software to his first use of a DEC
>> computer as a 13-year-old. He and Microsoft's other founder, Paul
>> Allen, created their first personal computer software on a DEC PDP-10
>> computer.
>>
>> In the 1960s, Digital built small, powerful and elegantly designed
>> ``minicomputers,'' which formed the basis of a lucrative new segment
>> of the computer marketplace. Though hardly ``mini'' by today's
>> standards, the computer became a favorite alternative to the giant,
>> multimillion-dollar mainframe computers sold by I.B.M. to large
>> corporate customers. The minicomputer found a market in research
>> laboratories, engineering companies and other professions requiring
>> heavy computer use.
>>
>> In time, several minicomputer companies sprang up around Digital and
>> thrived, forming the foundation of the Route 128 technology corridor
>> near Boston.
>>
>> Digital also spawned a generation of computing talent, lured by an
>> open corporate culture that fostered a free flow of ideas. A
>> frequently rumpled outdoorsman who preferred flannel shirts to
>> business suits, Mr. Olsen, a brawny man with piercing blue eyes,
>> shunned publicity and ran the company as a large, sometimes
>> contentious family.
>>
>> Many within the industry assumed that Digital, with its stellar
>> engineering staff, would be the logical company to usher in the age of
>> personal computers, but Mr. Olsen was openly skeptical of the desktop
>> machines. He thought of them as ``toys'' used for playing video games.
>>
>> Still, most people in the industry say Mr. Olsen's legacy is
>> secure. ``Ken Olsen is the father of the second generation of
>> computing,'' said George Colony, who is chief executive of Forrester
>> Research and a longtime industry watcher, ``and that makes him one of
>> the major figures in the history of this business.''
>>
>> Kenneth Harry Olsen was born in Bridgeport, Conn., on Feb. 20, 1926,
>> and grew up with his three siblings in nearby Stratford. His parents,
>> Oswald and Elizabeth Svea Olsen, were children of Norwegian
>> immigrants.
>>
>> Mr. Olsen and his younger brother Stan lived their passion for
>> electronics in the basement of their Stratford home, inventing gadgets
>> and repairing broken radios. After a stint in the Navy at the end of
>> World War II, Mr. Olsen headed to the Massachusetts Institute of
>> Technology, where he received bachelor's and master's degrees in
>> electrical engineering. He took a job at M.I.T.'s new Lincoln
>> Laboratory in 1950 and worked under Jay Forrester, who was doing
>> pioneering work in the nascent days of interactive computing.
>>
>> In 1957, itching to leave academia, Mr. Olsen, then 31, recruited a
>> Lincoln Lab colleague, Harlan Anderson, to help him start a
>> company. For financing they turned to Georges F. Doriot, a renowned
>> Harvard Business School professor and venture capitalist. According to
>> Mr. Colony, Digital became the first successful venture-backed company
>> in the computer industry. Mr. Anderson left the company shortly
>> afterward, leaving Mr. Olsen to put his stamp on it for more than
>> three decades.
>>
>> In Digital's often confusing management structure, Mr. Olsen was the
>> dominant figure who hired smart people, gave them responsibility and
>> expected them ``to perform as adults,'' said Edgar Schein, who taught
>> organizational behavior at M.I.T. and consulted with Mr. Olsen for 25
>> years. ``Lo and behold,'' he said, ``they performed magnificently.''
>>
>> One crucial employee was Gordon Bell, a DEC vice president and the
>> technical brains behind many of Digital's most successful
>> machines. ``All the alumni think of Digital fondly and remember it as
>> a great place to work,'' said Mr. Bell, who went on to become a
>> principal researcher at Microsoft.
>>
>> After he left Digital, Mr. Olsen began another start-up, Advanced
>> Modular Solutions, but it eventually failed. In retirement, he helped
>> found the Ken Olsen Science Center at Gordon College, a Christian
>> school in Wenham, Mass., where an archive of his papers and Digital's
>> history is housed. His family announced his death through the college.
>>
>> Mr. Olsen's wife of 59 years, Eeva-Liisa Aulikki Olsen, died in March
>> 2009. A son, Glenn, also died. Mr. Olsen's survivors include a
>> daughter, Ava Memmen, another son, James; his brother Stan; and five
>> grandchildren.
>> ...
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- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
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- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org -
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Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!
Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about the OS
that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer world today.
Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying to figure
out what TOPS-20 is about.
Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees are
still kicking around.
Long Live TOPS-20!
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@twenex.org
-------
8-Mar-2011 15:06:51-PST,2447;000000000000
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At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David Meyer wrote:
>Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!
>
>Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about the OS
>that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer world today.
>Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying to figure
>out what TOPS-20 is about.
>
>Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees are
>still kicking around.
>
>Long Live TOPS-20!
>
>--
>David Meyer
>Takarazuka, Japan
>papa@twenex.org
>-------
Hi,
I really have nothing to do with these systems these days, but I was at BBN when TENEX was written, (I made a tiny contribution to the ARPAnet), and did TOPS-10 OS work whilst at DEC ('70's and 80's). A teensie bit of my tops-10 IPCF code found its way into TOPS-20, and I contributed to "the Compatibility Package" while at BBN (Tenex/Tops-20)
But a piece of me still has me subscribing to this list :)
Welcome
--
--
...wex (10-3610) (PMW on the monitor listings)
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Hi,
I have a number of PDP-11 software manuals, processor manuals, a few books &
even a few software mag tapes from when I had worked at Digital Equipment. I
also have a number of processor manuals & some schematics for DEC System 10
& 20. Would you be interested in them or know someone who would like them?
Gerry Mildenberger
gmilden@3web.net
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I have a number of PDP-11 software manuals, processor =
manuals, a few books & even a few software mag tapes from when I had =
worked at Digital Equipment. </span>I also have a number of processor =
manuals & some schematics for DEC System 10 & 20. Would you be =
interested in them or know someone who would like them?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Gerry =
Mildenberger<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><a =
href=3D"mailto:gmilden@3web.net">gmilden@3web.net</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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Gerry Mildenberger <gmilden@3web.net> asks about old DEC manuals
that he possesses.
I strongly suggested getting them scanned into searchable PDFs,
and contributing them to bitsavers.org, which has a huge archive
of computer manuals. Then everyone can have the benefit, and
bitsavers.org can deal with the issue of copyright permissions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org beebe@computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
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<CMM.0.95.0.1300411176.beebe@psi.math.utah.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:48 +0100
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Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
From: Lars Persson <mcnimbus@gmail.com>
To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <beebe@math.utah.edu>
Cc: gmilden@3web.net, TOPS-20 List Moderator <mrc@lingling.panda.com>
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I wish I could do the same with my collection of DEC PDP11-s and VAXen. and
other DEC hardware.
They take up to much room and have to go soon.
I would hate to see these historically machines go but lack of space is lack
of space.
Nobody here in Scandinavia has any interest or ability to take care of them.
I too have quite a lot of books, drawings, manuals et cetera. To scan one or
two manuals
is ONE thing but to scan a library? I just do not have that ammount of time.
I am sure that others out there have the same problem, and I wish that we
could join forces
and twist arms and pull strings to have these grandparents of modern
computing preserved
somehow.
Oh well. A guy can dream..
/Lars
P.s. What KIND of stuff, I hear you ask - Well, mainly Q-bus but some
UNI-bus stuff is in there
too. VT100-s. VT55 (the one with the Saline printer), VT220, VT320 PDT stuff
AND SO ON.
Lots of spare cards too.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe <beebe@math.utah.edu>wrote:
> Gerry Mildenberger <gmilden@3web.net> asks about old DEC manuals
> that he possesses.
>
> I strongly suggested getting them scanned into searchable PDFs,
> and contributing them to bitsavers.org, which has a huge archive
> of computer manuals. Then everyone can have the benefit, and
> bitsavers.org can deal with the issue of copyright permissions.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254
> -
> - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148
> -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail:
> beebe@math.utah.edu -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@acm.org
> beebe@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL:
> http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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I wish I could do the same with my collection of DEC PDP11-s and VAXen. and=
<br>other DEC hardware.<br><br>They take up to much room and have to go soo=
n.<br><br>I would hate to see these historically machines go but lack of sp=
ace is lack of space.<br>
Nobody here in Scandinavia has any interest or ability to take care of them=
.<br><br>I too have quite a lot of books, drawings, manuals et cetera. To s=
can one or two manuals <br>is ONE thing but to scan a library? I just do no=
t have that ammount of time.<br>
<br>I am sure that others out there have the same problem, and I wish that =
we could join forces<br>and twist arms and pull strings to have these grand=
parents of modern computing preserved <br>somehow.<br><br>Oh well. A guy ca=
n dream..<br>
<br>/Lars<br><br>P.s. What KIND of stuff, I hear you ask - Well, mainly Q-b=
us but some UNI-bus stuff is in there <br>too. VT100-s. VT55 (the one with =
the Saline printer), VT220, VT320 PDT stuff AND SO ON.<br>Lots of spare car=
ds too.<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Nelson H. F=
. Beebe <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:beebe@math.utah.edu">beebe@=
math.utah.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204)=
; padding-left: 1ex;">
Gerry Mildenberger <<a href=3D"mailto:gmilden@3web.net">gmilden@3web.net=
</a>> asks about old DEC manuals<br>
that he possesses.<br>
<br>
I strongly suggested getting them scanned into searchable PDFs,<br>
and contributing them to <a href=3D"http://bitsavers.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>bitsavers.org</a>, which has a huge archive<br>
of computer manuals. =C2=A0Then everyone can have the benefit, and<br>
<a href=3D"http://bitsavers.org" target=3D"_blank">bitsavers.org</a> can de=
al with the issue of copyright permissions.<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">- Nelson H. F. Beebe =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tel: <a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20801%205=
81%205254">+1 801 581 5254</a> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-<br>
- University of Utah =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0FAX: <a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20801%20581%204148">+1 801 581 41=
48</a> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-<br>
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet e-mail: <a href=
=3D"mailto:beebe@math.utah.edu">beebe@math.utah.edu</a> =C2=A0-<br>
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:beebe@acm.org">beebe@acm.org</a>=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:beebe@computer.org">beebe@computer.org</a> -<br>
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA =C2=A0 =C2=A0URL: <a href=3D"http://ww=
w.math.utah.edu/%7Ebeebe/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.math.utah.edu/~beeb=
e/</a> -<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>
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(message from Lars Persson on Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:48 +0100)
Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
References: <000f01cbe4d3$15025d60$3f071820$@net>
<CMM.0.95.0.1300411176.beebe@psi.math.utah.edu> <AANLkTimdxvCkSjbV6qSDZBfPm4oovA9+sRNdLCW7+uhb@mail.gmail.com>
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> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:48 +0100
> From: Lars Persson <mcnimbus@gmail.com>
> I too have quite a lot of books, drawings, manuals et cetera. To scan one or
> two manuals is ONE thing but to scan a library? I just do not have that
> ammount of time.
> I am sure that others out there have the same problem, and I wish that we
> could join forces and twist arms and pull strings to have these grandparents
> of modern computing preserved somehow.
> Oh well. A guy can dream..
Al Kossow does a wonderful job with the Bitsavers.org archives, but there is,
as you note yourself, only so much time in one person's life. There are others
who are also scanning documents for Bitsavers, and one of them might be willing
to take on your collection.
As for older hardware, the Computer History Museum (where Al works) has a huge
breadth to their collection, but like most museums cannot house more than one
or two of any particular type of system, and cannot in general run the ones
they have.
Living Computer Museum, where I work, does restore systems to running condition
and show them off under power, both in person and where practicable on-line.
(It does not make sense to put a PDP-7 running a foreground/background OS with
2 terminal lines on the 'Net, or we would.) Note that I am not soliciting
anything here, simply pointing out that there are places that *are* preserving
the grandsystems.
Rich Alderson