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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:24:58 CDT
Message-Id: <9804221624.AA17461@dvorak.amd.com>
From: Clive Dawson <clive.dawson@amd.com>
To: tops-20@panda.com
Subject: Internet History
Hi folks,
I came across the following message in the TELECOM digest. Anybody
on this list who remembers what the transition to TCP/IP was like for
TOPS-20 might wish to get in touch with this person, since she is
requesting info for other operating systems besides Unix.
I recall some great war stories which appeared on this list back when
we were all struggling to bring up Kevin Paetzold's new code with
assorted patches and help from Bill Westfield and so many others who's
names continue to slowly fade...
Cheers,
Clive Dawson
P.S. Does anybody have a pointer to the TOPS-20 mailing list archives?
----Forwarded message----
From: rh120@sawasdee.columbia.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Subject: From NCP to UNIX Based TCP/IP (ARPANET to Internet)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:38:55 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
I am working on a paper for a survey of technology engineering
class about the role that Usenet newsgroups and ARPANET mailing list
played in the period of transition from the IMP based NCP ARPANET
to the tcp/ip UNIX based ARPANET II (the virtual network) which
became the Internet. I am trying to study the role that the
communication played and how it was helpful in this transition.
Describing this transition, Vint Cerf wrote:
"People participating in this transition of the ARPANET into
the internet environment are participating in an event as
exciting as the construction of the ARPANET and I am very
proud to be a part of it."
I am interested in the transition from NCP to tcp/ip which was
distributed with the BSD UNIX distribution.
It would be helpful to have sources about the work done at
the University of California Berkeley on the improvement of UNIX
and the extensions to UNIX V7 to support networking and the
discussions and work around the transition to UNIX based tcp/ip for
the ARPANET nodes.
Also I wondered if anyone has copies of the tcp/ip digest
mailing list after the January 18, 1982 issue and can make them
available. Earlier issues were both posted on Usenet and distributed
as an ARPANET mailing list. I am also interested in the development
of tcp/ip for other operating systems as part of this transition
from the ARPANET to the Internet.
I welcome suggestions of sources, papers etc. that may be
helpful in researching this period, and particularly on the role
that Net communication played in this transition. Also I would
be interested in email contact with Network pioneers who were
involved in this transition, accounts of the transition, etc..
Thanks for any help with this.
Ronda
ronda@panix.com
Other draft papers about the development of the Net and of
UNIX are online at
http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~ronda
Netizens: On the History and Impact
of Usenet and the Internet
http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/
and in print edition ISBN # 0-8186-7706-6
23-Apr-1998 21:14:36 -0700,4534;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:24:58 CDT
Message-Id: <9804221624.AA17461@dvorak.amd.com>
From: Clive Dawson <clive.dawson@amd.com>
To: tops-20@panda.com
Subject: Internet History
Hi folks,
I came across the following message in the TELECOM digest. Anybody
on this list who remembers what the transition to TCP/IP was like for
TOPS-20 might wish to get in touch with this person, since she is
requesting info for other operating systems besides Unix.
I recall some great war stories which appeared on this list back when
we were all struggling to bring up Kevin Paetzold's new code with
assorted patches and help from Bill Westfield and so many others who's
names continue to slowly fade...
Cheers,
Clive Dawson
P.S. Does anybody have a pointer to the TOPS-20 mailing list archives?
----Forwarded message----
From: rh120@sawasdee.columbia.edu (Ronda Hauben)
Subject: From NCP to UNIX Based TCP/IP (ARPANET to Internet)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:38:55 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
I am working on a paper for a survey of technology engineering
class about the role that Usenet newsgroups and ARPANET mailing list
played in the period of transition from the IMP based NCP ARPANET
to the tcp/ip UNIX based ARPANET II (the virtual network) which
became the Internet. I am trying to study the role that the
communication played and how it was helpful in this transition.
Describing this transition, Vint Cerf wrote:
"People participating in this transition of the ARPANET into
the internet environment are participating in an event as
exciting as the construction of the ARPANET and I am very
proud to be a part of it."
I am interested in the transition from NCP to tcp/ip which was
distributed with the BSD UNIX distribution.
It would be helpful to have sources about the work done at
the University of California Berkeley on the improvement of UNIX
and the extensions to UNIX V7 to support networking and the
discussions and work around the transition to UNIX based tcp/ip for
the ARPANET nodes.
Also I wondered if anyone has copies of the tcp/ip digest
mailing list after the January 18, 1982 issue and can make them
available. Earlier issues were both posted on Usenet and distributed
as an ARPANET mailing list. I am also interested in the development
of tcp/ip for other operating systems as part of this transition
from the ARPANET to the Internet.
I welcome suggestions of sources, papers etc. that may be
helpful in researching this period, and particularly on the role
that Net communication played in this transition. Also I would
be interested in email contact with Network pioneers who were
involved in this transition, accounts of the transition, etc..
Thanks for any help with this.
Ronda
ronda@panix.com
Other draft papers about the development of the Net and of
UNIX are online at
http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~ronda
Netizens: On the History and Impact
of Usenet and the Internet
http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/netbook/
and in print edition ISBN # 0-8186-7706-6
24-Apr-1998 09:25:07 -0700,2485;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 23:16:42 PDT
From: William "Chops" Westfield <billw@cisco.com>
To: Clive Dawson <clive.dawson@amd.com>
Cc: tops-20@panda.com
Subject: Re: Internet History
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:24:58 CDT
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.893398602.billw@flipper.cisco.com>
I recall some great war stories which appeared on this list back when
we were all struggling to bring up Kevin Paetzold's new code with
assorted patches and help from Bill Westfield and so many others who's
names continue to slowly fade...
Well, thank you. However, my contributions to tops20 internals came along
well after the "tcp/ip transition" (1/1/83) (or, looking at it another way,
the transition lasted a very long time.)
Looking back, it's amazing how early that transition was compared to other
networking "milestones." Few places had real ethernets (and certainly not
on 20s.) Cutting edge sites might have had some 3mb ethernet. SRI had
"SRIIMPs" - little LSI-11s that pretended to be IMPS running NCP, while
actually communicating via (Xerox) PUP over 3Mb ethernet. Stanford had a
lot of PUP, but I'm not sure how their 20's participated in those days.
At the time of the transition, most 20s (that spoke tcp) were running the
BBN TCP. There were additional mini-transitions when the DEC SW and
interface (NI) came out, when DNS went in, and/or if you got a
Stanford/cisco MEIS. My own tcp contributions happened when we noticed that
file transfers didn't go any faster of the MEIS than over the IMP, and that
trying to switch the Stanford terminal servers to tcp (for ~100 sessions per
20) didn't work very well. These "improvements" continued pretty much up to
the time that most of the stanford 20 crew (that remained) went full-time to
cisco in 1987 or so (with occasional patches thereafter, since cisco used a
dec-20 for some time.)
BillW
17-May-1998 11:48:28 -0700,1539;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:56:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Panda.COM>
Subject: 15 years ago today
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
Message-ID: <MailManager.895424216.4492.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Although not as important as December 7, 1941; May 17, 1983 is nonetheless a
day which shall live in infamy in the annals of computing. At 2PM on that
day, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson canceled project Jupiter. The true infamy of
that decision was not the loss of Jupiter, but rather the other decision which
went with it, which was to forgo building any other new PDP-10 CPUs and to
"integrate" the PDP-10 community into VMS.
At least that last never happened. VMS was never a significant player on the
Internet, and has faded into well-deserved obscurity. DEC, by "getting rid of
all the garbage" (meaning the funky 12-bit, 18-bit, and 36-bit architectures)
also got rid of its loyal customers; and is about to suffer the indignity of
being bought by a PC clone manufacturer.
However, I still get more than a modest twinge of annoyance when I see in some
book that Internet was developed on and for UNIX...
18-May-1998 21:45:12 -0700,1730;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 18 May 98 0:50:40 PDT
From: Mark Lottor <mkl@nw.com>
To: TOPS-20@panda.com
Subject: end of nic
Message-ID: <CMM.0.90.4.895477840.mkl@nw.com>
I guess I should report the loss of another DEC-20. The NIC 2065 was
at SRI International from approximately 1982 through 1998. This
system was used to run the DDN Network Information Center, before SRI
lost the contract to Network Solutions. It was known as NIC, SRI-NIC,
SRI-NIC.ARPA, NIC.DDN,MIL, and lastly as BOOTSTRAP.ORG. It ran the
WHOIS server, generated HOST tables, handled all domain registrations,
housed the RFC library, and was a root domain server. At one point
it had two IMP/1822 connections (to ARPANET and MILNET) and an ethernet
connection (via SRI to BARRNET). It was the only system besides
the "mailbridges" to be dual homed between ARPANET and MILNET.
When SRI lost the NIC contract, Doug Englebart was looking for a
system to run his old Augment software and other stuff on. Around
1992 the system was moved from SRI's E building to the P building, and
Doug used it until sometime early this year. It finally disappeared
in the last few months, I don't know where to...
-Mark
19-May-1998 08:39:14 -0700,1666;000000000000
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From: smj@sdf.lonestar.org (Stephen Jones)
Subject: end of nic
To: tops-20@panda.com
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 02:17:00 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
> It finally disappeared in the last few months, I don't know
> where to...
Mark,
I talked to Doug on the phone in the early Spring of 1994 about
NIC, the 2065. He said that he was working with KLH to move
over to an Alpha... he also said he had been talking with XKL
to try out one of their TD-1's ..
I'll tell you where NIC ended up .. in two words .. BRUCE KENNARD.
If you are really interested in DEC parts, he can help .. but
becareful .. these days he might try to sell you an Sun clone
made by Hyundai .. but if you are into that .. go for it.
Does anyone have pictures?
Speaking of 2065's .. Texas Women's University (about 10 miles up
the road from me) has one in an abandoned clean room .. they don't
know what to do with it.
Stephen
19-May-1998 22:23:57 -0700,1288;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:16:48 -0400
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From: amartin@deccxx.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin)
To: TOPS-20@panda.com
Subject: FWD: anybody want some history?
X-VMS-To: TOPS-20
From: US9RMC::"phil@ultimate.com" "Phil Budne" 20-MAY-1998 00:00:38.85
To: decc::amartin
Subj: anybody want some history?
From its-lovers-errors@mc.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 19 23:46:15 1998
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:46:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: sgw@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (stephen g. wadlow)
To: its-lovers@mc.lcs.mit.edu, info-pdp11@transarc.com
reply-to: sgw@mit.edu
Subject: anybody want some history?
I know of a DecSystem 2065 in the Cambridge, MA. area that's looking
for a sympathetic home in the very near future, lest it meet an
unhappy fate. Any takers?
steve
20-May-1998 14:21:21 -0700,1160;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:17:52 -0400
From: John Wilson <wilson@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-Id: <199805201417.KAA26645@dbit.dbit.com>
To: its-lovers@mc.lcs.mit.edu, tops-20@panda.com
Subject: Re: 2065
>From: Doug Humphrey <doug@good.joss.com>
>Strange as it sounds, I would be interested ;-)
>
>Now that I have a warehouse, I have a place to PUT something like
>this....
If you or anyone else wants a second 2065 as a spare, plus the CPU board set
from yet another one, I'm ready to admit that I'll never get a chance to set
mine up. It's in Troy, NY, near where I-90 and I-87 cross.
John Wilson
D Bit
05-Jun-1998 17:27:54 -0700,1798;000000000000
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:27:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@Panda.COM>
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
Subject: Sayonara, DEC
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.00.9806051657190.10179-100000@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
Organization: Pandamonium Reigns
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset = US-ASCII
On Thursday, June 11, 1998, Digital Equipment Corporation will cease to
exist; 15 years, 3 weeks, and 4 days after it slit its own throat by
cancelling 36 bits.
It's been a long time in coming, but it was inevitable. DEC's survival
was based upon a fanatic corps of users who would literally buy anything
as long as it came from DEC. How else could you explain the PDP-8/s?
The GIGI? The Rainbow?
The making of funky computers was a small niche, but it was a unique one,
and nobody did it better than DEC.
When MBAs replaced hackers as the decision-makers, DEC abandoned its funky
computers to go for the much larger soulless IBM-style byte oriented
market. Deep down inside, a PDP-11 really wished that it was made by IBM
in spite of its funky DEC clothing. The VAX, on the other hand, proudly
stood out in its three-piece suit and cried to the world "I Am Mundane!"
Problem was, in that market, DEC was just an also-ran. In that market,
the customers wouldn't tolerate high prices, poor performance, or
corporate arrogance.
*Sigh*
In spite of everything, I'm sad to see it happen.
Nobody did it better.
07-Jun-1998 21:25:23 -0700,2210;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:52:46 -0500
From: George Markham <gmarkham@futura.net>
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To: Mark Crispin <mrc@panda.com>
CC: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@panda.com>
Subject: Re: Sayonara, DEC
References: <Pine.NXT.4.00.9806051657190.10179-100000@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
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Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Thursday, June 11, 1998, Digital Equipment Corporation will cease to
> exist; 15 years, 3 weeks, and 4 days after it slit its own throat by
> cancelling 36 bits.
When we rolled out our ki10 many years ago in favor of the vax, I turned aside
and never looked at anything else they did for a long, long time. Alphas are
ok, but if I want a pc on steroids, I'll grab a Sun or something of like ilk,
as the icki licensing and such is just hassle I dont need to deal with.
> The making of funky computers was a small niche, but it was a unique one,
> and nobody did it better than DEC.
>
Sure enough. All those cool engineer types in sandals were nice too
> The VAX, on the other hand, proudly
> stood out in its three-piece suit and cried to the world "I Am Mundane!"
>
Truer words hath never been uttered.
>
>
> *Sigh*
>
Yes, sure is nice to have that xkl toad thing to type at.....
> In spite of everything, I'm sad to see it happen.
>
It really was a terrible move for them in my book too.
14-Jul-1998 16:44:08 -0700,1337;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Barron <pat@transarc.com>
To: tops-20@panda.com
Subject: Looking for TOPS-20 distribution
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980714131148.24118E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm trying to find a TOPS-20 distribution; a V4 vintage would be best, but
will take anything I can get. I can read 9-track tapes, though I don't
necessarily need a physical tape (tape images that I could FTP from
somewhere would be fine - in fact, they'd be ideal).
Yes, I am licensed for this software, I just have no media.
If you can help, please drop me a note. Thanks!
--Pat.
09-Dec-1998 18:05:01 -0800,2404;000000000000
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Message-Id: <9812091809.AA02273@doctor.zk3.dec.com>
To: TOPS-20@Panda.COM
Subject: A very happy DEC-10 day to all of you out there..
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 98 13:09:44 -0500
From: "Dr. Tom Blinn, 603-884-0646" <tpb@doctor.zk3.dec.com>
X-Mts: smtp
A recent message from someone in Norway who happens to share the same first
name asking about our "name day" (he sent it to everyone at Compaq Computer
Corporation with the given name "Thomas") reminded me of the tradition of
honoring the former Digital Equipment Corporation's 36-bit systems on both
DEC 10 and DEC 20 days..
And since it's already DEC-10 day in some parts of the world, I thought I'd
send out my wishes to all of you fellow die-hards on this list.
Tom
Dr. Thomas P. Blinn + UNIX Software Group + Compaq Computer Corporation
110 Spit Brook Road, MS ZKO3-2/U20 Nashua, New Hampshire 03062-2698
Technology Partnership Engineering Phone: (603) 884-0646
Internet: tpb@zk3.dec.com Digital's Easynet: alpha::tpb
ACM Member: tpblinn@acm.org PC@Home: tom@felines.mv.net
Worry kills more people than work because more people worry than work.
Keep your stick on the ice. -- Steve Smith ("Red Green")
My favorite palindrome is: Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
-- Phil Agre, pagre@ucsd.edu
Yesterday it worked / Today it is not working / UNIX is like that
-- apologies to Margaret Segall
Opinions expressed herein are my own, and do not necessarily represent
those of my employer or anyone else, living or dead, real or imagined.
12-Dec-1998 17:30:03 -0800,3054;000000000000
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Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:55:48 +0100 (MET)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:55:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Eriksson <bygg@swip.net>
Reply-To: Johnny Eriksson <bygg@swip.net>
To: TOPS-20@panda.com
Subject: Re: A very happy DEC-10 day to all of you out there..
In-Reply-To: <9812091809.AA02273@doctor.zk3.dec.com>
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On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Dr. Tom Blinn, 603-884-0646 wrote:
> A recent message from someone in Norway who happens to share the same first
> name asking about our "name day" (he sent it to everyone at Compaq Computer
> Corporation with the given name "Thomas") reminded me of the tradition of
> honoring the former Digital Equipment Corporation's 36-bit systems on both
> DEC 10 and DEC 20 days..
>
> And since it's already DEC-10 day in some parts of the world, I thought I'd
> send out my wishes to all of you fellow die-hards on this list.
Since I am a die-hard, I took the liberty of spinning up some disks and
giving some commands, taking her out for a ride:
Nadja 7.04 20:35:46 TTY20 system 4280
Connected to Node 59.1 Line # 0
Please LOGIN
.sys us
1 [OPR] OPERATOR CTY NETWOR 14+18
2 2,5 20 SYSTAT 21+SPY
.KJOB
.log 10,335
JOB 2 Nadja 7.04 TTY20
Password:
Thursday 98-12-10 20:36 Last login 98-12-10 20:28
.term defer
.run arplst
ARP count: 15
IP addr= 130.237.235.94, HW addr= 00:80:ad:c6:57:00, TTL= 280
IP addr= 130.237.234.76, HW addr= 00:aa:00:48:54:7a, TTL= 276
IP addr= 130.237.234.54, HW addr= 08:00:20:1a:5a:a5, TTL= 274
IP addr= 130.237.234.73, HW addr= 08:00:20:18:94:5b, TTL= 297
IP addr= 130.237.234.48, HW addr= 08:00:20:1a:77:ac, TTL= 220
IP addr= 130.237.234.19, HW addr= aa:00:04:00:01:ec, TTL= 220
IP addr= 130.237.234.46, HW addr= 08:00:20:19:4a:37, TTL= 279
IP addr= 130.237.234.58, HW addr= 08:00:20:1a:73:e4, TTL= 203
IP addr= 130.237.234.50, HW addr= 08:00:20:1a:44:6a, TTL= 200
IP addr= 130.237.234.41, HW addr= 08:00:20:10:aa:c5, TTL= 164
IP addr= 130.237.234.55, HW addr= 08:00:20:1a:6d:9e, TTL= 277
IP addr= 130.237.234.224, HW addr= 00:80:24:01:5a:6b, TTL= 297
IP addr= 130.237.235.93, HW addr= 00:a0:24:82:e7:cc, TTL= 275
IP addr= 130.237.234.1, HW addr= 00:00:0c:01:c4:ec, TTL= 176
IP addr= 130.237.234.17, HW addr= 08:00:20:19:9b:90, TTL= 31
.kjob
To paraphrase Monty Python: Not dead, just resting.
> Tom
--Johnny
15-Dec-1998 16:02:27 -0800,1338;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:00:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@Panda.COM>
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
Subject: bugfix for FLKTIM bugchks after system up for 198.3 days
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.10.9812151551190.5149-100000@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
Organization: Pandamonium Reigns
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Thanks to Ralph Gorin of XKL for reporting the problem.
Problem:
FLKTIM bugchks start happening after the system is up for 198.3
days.
Diagnosis:
TODCLK exceeds what fork timeouts think is a "very large number".
Binary patch:
FUNLK+5/ MOVSI T1,20000 HRLOI T1,377777
Source change: In FORK.MAC in FUNLK, change:
MOVX T1,1B1 ;GET VERY LARGE NUMBER
to be
MOVX T1,.INFIN ;GET VERY LARGE NUMBER
-- Mark --
* RCW 19.149 notice: This email address is located in Washington State. *
* Unsolicited commercial email may be billed $500 per message. *
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
16-Dec-1998 16:52:12 -0800,1149;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:26:22 -0500
From: Dan Murphy <dlm@opost.com>
Message-Id: <199812161526.KAA19578@opost.com>
To: TOPS-20@panda.com
Subject: Re: bugfix for FLKTIM bugchks after system up for 198.3 days
Cool! I wonder if there are any Y2K bugs lurking about...
dlm
==============
Mark Crispin <mrc@Panda.COM> writes:
> Thanks to Ralph Gorin of XKL for reporting the problem.
> Problem:
> FLKTIM bugchks start happening after the system is up for 198.3
> days.
> Diagnosis:
> TODCLK exceeds what fork timeouts think is a "very large number".
16-Dec-1998 16:52:22 -0800,1696;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:14:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Panda.COM>
Subject: a sad today
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
Message-ID: <MailManager.913853685.649.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
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Today, I began transferring the contents of my primary RM05 (via KERMIT at
9600 baud) on my 2020 to a SCSI drive on a UNIX system. The 2020 had been
sitting idle for over a year, and now that I had some disk space on the UNIX
machine I decided to make good use of it. I got Tenex monitor sources, Tenex
EXEC sources, and most of 4.1 monitor sources, but in TIMER.MAC the RM05
crapped out.
I can't tell if it's a head crash or if it got too hot or what. It's typical
head crash behavior; random (and escalating) disk errors. I spun the RM05
down, now it won't spin up again.
A brief moment of silence, please....
Fortunately, I have another RM05 drive and TOPS-20 system pack that is more or
less complete and up to date. I also have backup tapes, so I should be able
to recover most of what was last. I also have two working RM03s.
It's clear, though, that this antique hardware isn't going to last much
longer. As expected, the disks are what's going first. It's too bad that
nobody ever succeeded in working out an interface between MASSBUS and modern
disks.
17-Dec-1998 11:47:17 -0800,2140;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:23:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@panda.com>
cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@panda.com>
Subject: Re: a sad today
In-Reply-To: <MailManager.913853685.649.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
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On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Mark Crispin wrote:
Hi, Mark.
Sad to hear the RM05 give up.
> It's clear, though, that this antique hardware isn't going to last much
> longer. As expected, the disks are what's going first. It's too bad that
> nobody ever succeeded in working out an interface between MASSBUS and modern
> disks.
Hmmm, I seem to remember a MASSBUS <-> SCSI interface being sold a few
years ago, along with a SCSI-disk, and the whole thing called an RM06.
Good luck on getting such hardware donated though. I doubt that very many
were sold.
Problem with MASSBUS is that systems are expected to know so much of the
disk that it's hard to get sensible replacements. They'll have to emulate
something existing, or no OS will touch it. And RP07 is as large as they
get, and that's only 1/2 gig approx. :-/
Oh well. Hope your -2020 will live on. Did DEC ever support MSCP on it?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
28-Dec-1998 20:38:12 -0800,1262;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:49:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@Panda.COM>
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
Subject: R.I.P. PANDA:
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.10.9812281243230.6913-100000@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
Organization: Pandamonium Reigns
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Well, I took a closer look at my primary RM05 pack with a flashlight. As
feared, one of the surfaces has the unmistakable scoring of a head crash.
So, the pack is toast and the drive is probably toast as well (I doubt it
is possible to repair an RM05 any more, and certainly not affordably).
I'm going to take a look at how current the filesystem is on my backup
RM05 PS. I think that it's more or less up to date. The other RM05
drive is believed to work, but hasn't ever been exercised much. I have a
full DUMPER backup on 9track tape; I better plan on getting that onto more
reliable media ASAP.
29-Dec-1998 01:18:53 -0800,4646;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:49:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Baltrunas <carl@tardis.Tymnet.COM>
Reply-To: Carl Baltrunas <carl@tardis.Tymnet.COM>
Subject: Re: R.I.P. PANDA:
To: TOPS-20@panda.com
Cc: carl@reststop.com
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X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.0 CDE Version 1.2 SunOS 5.6 sun4m sparc
> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:49:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Crispin <mrc@Panda.COM>
> To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
> Subject: R.I.P. PANDA:
>
> Well, I took a closer look at my primary RM05 pack with a flashlight. As
> feared, one of the surfaces has the unmistakable scoring of a head crash.
> So, the pack is toast and the drive is probably toast as well (I doubt it
> is possible to repair an RM05 any more, and certainly not affordably).
>
> I'm going to take a look at how current the filesystem is on my backup
> RM05 PS. I think that it's more or less up to date. The other RM05
> drive is believed to work, but hasn't ever been exercised much. I have a
> full DUMPER backup on 9track tape; I better plan on getting that onto more
> reliable media ASAP.
Sorry to hear about your RM03. Good thing you have backups.
>
I will need my address on this list changed, as it appears that after 18
years and many company name changes, the layoff package they are offering
here is too attractive to pass over. I MAY still stay if they put it in
writing that I can still get the same layoff package for up to the next 24
months, but I am not betting on it and am expecting that they will simply
let me take the layoff... 3 weeks of pay per year of service, plus full
continued medical coverage for the severance period.
(We'll know in a day or so, since my last scheduled day is Dec 31st.)
My new address is 'carl@reststop.com' which is my home domain.
It is likely that I may have another address soon, on my very own XKL Toad-1
server running in my garage, but that is not expected for a couple of weeks
when we shut it down and haul it out of the data center. My co-hort in arms,
Joe Smith, is expecting to obtain the other XKL and we hope to have them
both up on the net shortly thereafter. (like within a day of getting it home).
Of course, it is running TOPS-20 Monitor 7(102400)-1, so it's a N-I-C-E
machine. We will be entertaining useful purposes for the machines, so if
you have any good ideas, feel free to email me, or Joe at my new addess,
or either/both of our old addresses: carl@tymnet.com or jms@tymnet.com.
Guest accounts may be available at some time in the future, but in my
case it'll be connected to the net via a dedicated dialup-ppp link, it
won't have fast net access. Joe should be connected via a cable modem
so his will have plenty of bandwidth in at least one direction if @home
gets their act together.
Cheers!
-Carl
Carl A Baltrunas, Catalyst Industries, Milpitas CA, carl@reststop.com
soon to be formerly of... (this was all one company, bought and sold)
MCI Worldcom Network Management, San Jose, CA 95131
formerly MCI Telecommunications Corp.,
formerly BTNA, Inc.,
formerly BT North America,
formerly BT Tymnet,
formerly McDonnell Douglas Network Systems Company,
formerly McDonnell Douglas Field Service Company,
formerly McDonnell Douglas Integrated Systems Group,
formerly McDonnell Douglas Tymshare,
formerly Tymshare, Inc.
Phone: (408) 922-6206, Fax: (408) 922-6702, email: carl.baltrunas@mci.com
"DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and
millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines
in use worldwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches
are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a
higher life form."
-New York Times, November 26, 1991
29-Dec-1998 10:23:01 -0800,3296;000000000000
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To: Mark Crispin <mrc@Panda.COM>
Cc: TOPS-20@Panda.COM
Subject: Re: R.I.P. PANDA:
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Dec 98 12:49:33 PST."
<Pine.NXT.4.10.9812281243230.6913-100000@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 08:08:02 -0500
From: "Dr. Tom Blinn, 603-884-0646" <tpb@doctor.zk3.dec.com>
X-Mts: smtp
> Well, I took a closer look at my primary RM05 pack with a flashlight. As
> feared, one of the surfaces has the unmistakable scoring of a head crash.
> So, the pack is toast and the drive is probably toast as well (I doubt it
> is possible to repair an RM05 any more, and certainly not affordably).
>
> I'm going to take a look at how current the filesystem is on my backup
> RM05 PS. I think that it's more or less up to date. The other RM05
> drive is believed to work, but hasn't ever been exercised much. I have a
> full DUMPER backup on 9track tape; I better plan on getting that onto more
> reliable media ASAP.
The joys of old, outmoded hardware. Indeed, it's unfortunate that there has
been no real market for things like a MASSBUS to SCSI adapter, or better yet
native SCSI. On the 2020, at least it might have been possible to build a
Unibus SCSI interface, if there were only a market..
Sort of like what's happened to i286 PCs and ISA-only systems -- fallen by the
wayside.
At least 9 track tape hasn't completely gone away, but finding a system that
can actually interpret a DUMPER tape (or any other archaic software format) is
increasingly difficult. And the DUMPER format is pretty trivial.
Tom
Dr. Thomas P. Blinn + UNIX Software Group + Compaq Computer Corporation
110 Spit Brook Road, MS ZKO3-2/U20 Nashua, New Hampshire 03062-2698
Technology Partnership Engineering Phone: (603) 884-0646
Internet: tpb@zk3.dec.com Digital's Easynet: alpha::tpb
ACM Member: tpblinn@acm.org PC@Home: tom@felines.mv.net
Worry kills more people than work because more people worry than work.
Keep your stick on the ice. -- Steve Smith ("Red Green")
My favorite palindrome is: Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
-- Phil Agre, pagre@ucsd.edu
Yesterday it worked / Today it is not working / UNIX is like that
-- apologies to Margaret Segall
Opinions expressed herein are my own, and do not necessarily represent
those of my employer or anyone else, living or dead, real or imagined.
29-Dec-1998 11:22:13 -0800,1543;000000000000
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To: mrc@panda.com, tpb@doctor.zk3.dec.com
Subject: Re: R.I.P. PANDA:
Cc: TOPS-20@panda.com
> can actually interpret a DUMPER tape (or any other archaic software format) is
> increasingly difficult. And the DUMPER format is pretty trivial.
The people at the computer center at Columbia University had written such a
tool (any of you guys on this list?). If there is interest, I will try
contacting them about releasing the source.
/ji
29-Dec-1998 13:15:30 -0800,1753;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:00:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Phil Budne <phil@ultimate.com>
Message-Id: <199812292100.QAA13467@ultimate.com>
To: ji@research.att.com, mrc@panda.com, tpb@doctor.zk3.dec.com
Subject: Re: R.I.P. PANDA:
Cc: TOPS-20@panda.com
From: John Ioannidis <ji@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> can actually interpret a DUMPER tape (or any other archaic
> software format) is increasingly difficult. And the DUMPER
> format is pretty trivial.
The people at the computer center at Columbia University had
written such a tool (any of you guys on this list?). If there
is interest, I will try contacting them about releasing the
source.
read20 is widely available (in various versions) and works well.
It was written by Jim Guyton at the Rand Corporation, and has been
modified by Jay Lepreau, Univ of Utah and Stu Grossman (Stanford).
ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp10/tops20/read20/
ftp://ftp-ns.rutgers.edu/pub/read20/
I also have a program "backup10" by Johnny Eriksson <bygg@sunet.se>
that I've modified to generate tape listings that look like BACKUP's
own, and restore the correct file date/times, and other stuff.
-phil
29-Dec-1998 14:38:10 -0800,2036;000000000000
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From: "Neil Pellinacci" <neil@badlands.demon.co.uk>
To: TOPS-20@panda.com
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:22:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: R.I.P. PANDA:
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John Ioannidis <ji@research.att.com> wrote in response to Tom Blinn
<tpb@doctor.zk3.dec.com>:
> > can actually interpret a DUMPER tape (or any other archaic software format) is
> > increasingly difficult. And the DUMPER format is pretty trivial.
Unlike nearly everything nowadays :-)
> The people at the computer center at Columbia University had
> written such a tool (any of you guys on this list?). If there is
> interest, I will try contacting them about releasing the source.
I remember talk of dumper32 on VAX/VMS, but I've never actually seen
it.
If such a thing exists and someone in the UK can pull stuff off a
tape, I'd be interested as we should have a couple hiding
somewhere...
Cheers,
Neil.
Neil Pellinacci, neil@badlands.demon.co.uk, morgan@serf.org
i know what's good for you | why let your heart bleed
i have my reasons | why suffer soul strain
i draw these plans for you | why lose your sleep
pick them up you'll need them | over things such as these?
29-Dec-1998 14:59:12 -0800,2060;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:39:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@Panda.COM>
Subject: latest update
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <TOPS-20@Panda.COM>
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Well, the situation is not as bad as it could have been. But it could be
better.
It appears that my backup RM05 pack has an image of PANDA: from August 1992.
That means that I have definitely lost some 5.5 and 7.1 monitor edits that I
made, but hopefully not too many.
My 2020 has been busy since yesterday afternoon running two simultaneous
KERMIT streams loading the text contents of that filesystem to a SCSI drive on
UNIX that I have dedicated for this purpose. So far, about 60MB has been
transferred onto safe media, including the 4.1 monitor source transfer which
got aborted by the head crash.
I could kick myself for not transferring 5.5 monitor sources first, since the
head crash happened while TIMER.MAC was being transferred. Well, live and
learn.
I'm going to try to read my backup tapes later this week; hopefully I'll be
able to recover what I lost. I'll also see if the backup (now primary) RM05
can be updated to the state that PANDA: was before the crash, but since I
don't seem to have a working tape drive any more, that'll probably be more
KERMIT work.
A 2020 running two KERMITs at 9600 baud is very slow! ;-)
My main goal at this point is to conserve what's still working on this system.
The loss of both the primary RM05 and TU45 is a severe blow but fortunately
not devastating. The next loss will be devastating. I still plan to have
these machines running at midnight, January 1, 2000.
29-Dec-1998 21:04:09 -0800,1692;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:32:10 -0500
From: "Alan H. Martin" <AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com>
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To: TOPS-20@Panda.COM
CC: neil@badlands.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: R.I.P. PANDA:
References: <E0zv5bb-0002mW-00@post.mail.demon.net>
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Neil Pellinacci wrote:
> I remember talk of dumper32 on VAX/VMS, but I've never actually seen
> it.
>
> If such a thing exists and someone in the UK can pull stuff off a
> tape, I'd be interested as we should have a couple hiding
> somewhere...
I don't have access to a VMS system, but there are sources for
SI_DUMPER/DUMPER-32 at:
http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/document_html/vs0097_3.html
I have some additional bug fixes:
1. Filespecs containing ^V.
2. Files with generation numbers >=32K.
3. Filenames that start with ``-''.
4. Files named foo.DIR.
None of the edits are production quality, but they beat hell out of DUMPER-32
aborting in the middle of a restore.
/AHM
--
Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com