[HN Gopher] Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]
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Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]
 
Author : podiki
Score  : 150 points
Date   : 2023-06-16 04:31 UTC (1 days ago)
 
web link (rpgwatch.com)
w3m dump (rpgwatch.com)
 
| sedatk wrote:
| The document contains spoilers for anyone who's willing to play
| it today.
 
| ineedasername wrote:
| Technical limitations made it difficult to deliver on _every
| single_ aspect of the pitch, but I'd say it filled the spirit of
| the game intended by this doc.
| 
| It goes a long way towards explaining how it so significantly
| differentiated itself from the more sterile (but battle focused--
| which was fun too) Icewinf Dale games or the Baldur's Gate games
| that had a bit more guardrails build into them.
| 
| All of those stand out as exceptional classics, but Planescape
| was unique among them.
 
| podiki wrote:
| From this RPGWatch interview:
| 
| https://rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=55 (part 1)
| 
| https://rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=56 (part 2)
 
| v-erne wrote:
| >> Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that
| make the player go "wow." >> There will be fiendish babes, human
| babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes.
| 
| Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target
| audience really want.
| 
| It almost like finding "and its also addictive, in most
| profitable kind of way" in Marlboro brand pitch deck.
| 
| Its kinda refrshing.
 
  | watashiato wrote:
  | For those who haven't played the game, it should be noted that
  | the game is nothing like what the pitch implies.
  | 
  | PS:T is a well written and introspective RPG and in this
  | capacity it is rivaled by only a handful of contenders.
 
    | User23 wrote:
    | Disco Elysium, which I haven't gotten around to playing yet
    | so I have no personal opinion, is the only contender I can
    | think of.
    | 
    | The only other game I can think of with that level of
    | narrative craft is the Marathon series, which isn't an RPG,
    | but rather an FPS.
    | 
    | I'm kind of surprised Marathon 4 hasn't been kickstarted yet.
    | There is definitely a whole lot of money on the table there,
    | as the System Shock remake proves.
 
      | chpatrick wrote:
      | Disco Elysium is probably the best game I've ever played
      | but I couldn't get into Planescape Torment.
 
        | waveBidder wrote:
        | I would love a modern recreation of planescape torment.
        | the story seems excellent but I bounced off the actual
        | experience of the game
 
        | danielheath wrote:
        | Even as someone who played it when it was a few years
        | old, it's challenging to replay today. Definitely
        | deserves a refresh.
 
      | danielheath wrote:
      | Tides of Torment, perhaps?
 
      | ksaun wrote:
      | (FWIW, the studio with which I'm affiliated
      | (https://digimancygames.com) is focused on narrative-driven
      | CRPGs in the vein of games like PS:T and Disco Elysium. We
      | have assembled three of the Disco Elysium writers and other
      | talent in this space. We have an internal project, but are
      | seeking publishing partners or investors.)
 
      | chc4 wrote:
      | Bungie announced a new Marathon game a few weeks ago, in
      | case you didn't know. It's going to be an extraction
      | shooter (a la Escape from Tarkov) and not singleplayer FPS,
      | though.
 
      | throwaway173738 wrote:
      | Having played both Disco Elysium and Planescape, this is
      | very accurate. Depending on the choices you make you will
      | find yourself with the same plot points accomplished in
      | totally different ways in both games. And different choices
      | will go off the rails too.
 
    | [deleted]
 
  | badsectoracula wrote:
  | > Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what
  | target audience really want.
  | 
  | IIRC it was the other way around, the pitch document went
  | overboard with that because it was what the
  | executives/publisher believed audiences would want :-)
  | 
  | Remember this wasn't the design document but the document to
  | convince those with money to spend that money to make the game.
 
    | ksaun wrote:
    | I believe your recollection to be accurate.
    | 
    | The lead designer (Chris Avellone), who I think was the
    | primary author of this document, is often playful and
    | energetic/hyperbolic with his language, yet is extremely
    | focused and professional in his approach to the actual game
    | design. (I.e., this exact type of disconnect between the
    | energy/tone of this document and the energy/tone of the game
    | is consistent with what I know of him. The self depreciation,
    | noted in the comment below by ricardobayes, is also on brand
    | for him.)
    | 
    | Source: I've worked with Chris very directly on three games
    | and indirectly on several others. We've talked about this
    | document in passing before (though I didn't know him until a
    | few years later).
 
      | sho_hn wrote:
      | This might be widely inappropriate to bring up, but do you
      | know how Chris' lawsuit against his cancellers is going?
      | Like many players I used to look up to his work, and then
      | was of course taken aback by the serious allegations
      | against him; it's one of the messiest he said/she said
      | cases I've encountered, though. Still very curious about
      | the ultimate outcome.
      | 
      | Edit: https://kotaku.com/fallout-new-vegas-avellone-sexual-
      | miscond...
 
        | Popeyes wrote:
        | https://chrisavellone.medium.com/joint-statement-from-
        | kariss...
        | 
        | They completely recanted their allegations and paid him a
        | sum of money.
 
    | Delk wrote:
    | IIRC the game does have a couple of female characters that
    | could be seen as catering to that kind of a stereotype, at
    | least in terms of appearance if not necessarily the story.
    | 
    | But I also got the overall vibe that the pitch document goes
    | overboard in terms of emphasizing that aspect as well as
    | other kinds of shallow badassery such as the violence of the
    | game.
    | 
    | The pitch document also makes a big fuss about "ego
    | masturbation" and the "player's power fantasy", and how the
    | main character and his destiny are the centrepieces of
    | everything. But that's not the vibe I got from the game at
    | all. The main character _is_ obviously at the centre of a lot
    | of things, and I think the games does allow you to play
    | selfishly. But I don 't think the game really directs you
    | towards that, let alone glorifying the character or the
    | results of his past actions. Those parts of the pitch
    | document read really weird to me.
    | 
    | The game does of course make a point of being morbid and
    | gruesome, even macabre. But I think the game does that with a
    | lot less bravado than the pitch document suggests.
    | 
    | But then, it _is_ a pitch document, and not even marketing
    | for the finished product.
 
      | the_af wrote:
      | The disconnect between the look and the actual description
      | of the two main female characters, Fall-from-Grace and
      | Annah, is interesting.
      | 
      | Annah looks like a bimbo in her 3D model, but in game most
      | NPCs find her repulsive or at least off-putting. She's not
      | sexualized in-game, but her portrait is that of a "sexy
      | babe".
      | 
      | Conversely, Fall-from-Grace is described in-game as a
      | tempting succubus (though she doesn't behave like one) and
      | is supposed to be extremely attractive, yet her 3D portrait
      | is rendered in shadows, very skinny, with scary bat wings
      | and no hint of "babe" characteristics. She is not "sexy".
      | 
      | I wonder if the people who drew the character portraits
      | were going by the early pitch draft, because the disconnect
      | with the actual characters is extreme.
 
    | ethbr0 wrote:
    | For younger folks, I would suggest looking at E3 convention
    | 1998 and 1999 galleries.
    | 
    | That will tell you what you need to know about the state of
    | the computer gaming industry and publishers at that point.
    | 
    | This was circa-"John Romero's about to make you his bitch"
    | [0] as acceptable copy for a full-page ad.
    | 
    | [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana#Promotion_and_r
    | ele...
 
  | Dwelve wrote:
  | I never knew this game was so amazing. Guess I gotta play it
  | after all
 
    | hutzlibu wrote:
    | It has a very special (morbid) humor.
 
  | the_af wrote:
  | The actual game is nothing like this at all.
  | 
  | There are a couple of unfortunate character portraits of
  | "babes", that don't match the actual character descriptions or
  | behavior. It's the only juvenile aspect to the game, along with
  | some of Morte's quips.
  | 
  | The actual game is neither juvenile nor a power fantasy. It is
  | an anti-power-fantasy. It is about atonement for past misdeeds.
  | Killing is often not the solution, and in fact there is a
  | "pacifist" walkthrough.
  | 
  | Most of the characters you find are mentally and physically
  | scarred by things done to them by [redacted].
 
    | ajuc wrote:
    | I think this is a common problem artists have to deal with.
    | The art they want to make (and that fans want to get) vs the
    | industry approval filter. You have to lie to at least one of
    | these groups.
    | 
    | See new Netflix shows for how idiotic and self-sabotaging it
    | can get if you choose lying to fans (see Witcher).
 
      | hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
      | What's the problem with the Witcher?
 
        | ajuc wrote:
        | First season was mostly ok, there were some
        | "representation" changes but not too bad. 2nd season they
        | changed everything to the point that it's easier to list
        | what didn't changed. And they changed it for worse...
        | Third season is supposedly so far off that the main actor
        | Henry Caville who is a big fan of the books resigned.
        | 
        | Imagine Peter Jackson made Sam betray Frodo and sell him
        | to Saruman, Gandalf was actually trying to turn Frodo
        | into an orc, elves were actually going to the middle
        | earth not escaping it, and the big bad wasn't Sauron but
        | some new character invented by Jackson that makes no
        | sense but sounds vaguely Icelandish because we want to
        | keep the Nordic theme. Oh and half the party gets killed
        | in Rivendale by the new villain mindfucking Frodo.
        | 
        | And magic stops being unexplained and mythical. You just
        | gather shiny rocks and you can cast spells.
        | 
        | This is roughly equivalent to what has been changed in
        | season 2. Characters and motivations are unrecognizable,
        | the world is a mess.
        | 
        | Season 3 is widely boycotted by fans.
 
        | iamacyborg wrote:
        | > Season 3 is widely boycotted by fans.
        | 
        | This has strong "boycott Modern Warfare 2" energy.
 
  | becquerel wrote:
  | I was skeptical at first, but the babes are even undead? Truly
  | this must be the RPG of a generation
 
    | User23 wrote:
    | Ahh Morte.
 
    | throwaway173738 wrote:
    | > Did you see the way she was looking at me boss?
    | 
    | > You mean that slack-jawed beyond the grave look?
 
  | smcl wrote:
  | Then a few sections later
  | 
  | > Babes: Think babes. Then think more babes.
  | 
  | Slightly different times :)
 
    | checkyoursudo wrote:
    | It strikes me as not a little weird that the word for a hot,
    | sexy member of either sex is the same as a word for a very,
    | very small child.
    | 
    | Like, "Why, hello there, infant." _dogwhistle_
 
      | bourneavent wrote:
      | That's because they call you "Daddy" in the bedroom.
      | 
      | There's actually sort of a real reason for this. In the
      | traditional monogamous or even polygamous relationship
      | throughout human history it's usually the Male taking care
      | of the female. Women when seeking a relationship are sort
      | of searching for a caretaker that has sort of father like
      | qualities of having enough resources to take care of them,
      | taking a dominant role... etc.
      | 
      | The relationship most similar to it is father and daughter
      | I can sort of see why the linguistics have sort of merged.
      | 
      | Obviously, in the last century, things have changed and the
      | etiquette of relationship dynamics need to be spoken of in
      | a way that's more egalitarian.
      | 
      | But you can't completely deny millions of years of human
      | anthropological behavior. If men usually played more
      | dominant/caretaker roles in relationships in the majority
      | of civilizations, then along that timescale certain
      | behaviors become a bit ingrained biologically through
      | natural selection. It's not surprising to see these
      | attributes creep into language.
 
        | waveBidder wrote:
        | Poppycock. until recently, in agricultural societies,
        | families (usually men) were choosing families to cement
        | relationships with by trading children. what the woman
        | (and frequently the men) wanted was mostly irrelevant.
        | see https://scholars-stage.org/against-human-sexual-
        | selection/
        | 
        | If "daddy" is a thing, it's because of frequent age
        | differences, since pregnancy is extremely hard on your
        | body (fatality rates as high as being a soldier in a
        | warzone until the advent of modern medicine).
 
      | okasaki wrote:
      | Are you also offended by the fact that "history" has "his"
      | in it?
 
        | checkyoursudo wrote:
        | No? Why would I be?
 
      | stavros wrote:
      | Similarly to when people call their significant others
      | "baby".
 
      | hombre_fatal wrote:
      | Wait til you find out people like to spank and be spanked
      | in the bedroom. It's basically Jeff Epstein's island.
 
    | bourneavent wrote:
    | This language is unconventional for business even in the 90s.
    | Additionally men wouldn't talk this way in front of women in
    | Any time.
    | 
    | The difference now is it's less culturally accepted to talk
    | like this even in casual situations even when just among men.
    | 
    | Plenty women objectify men by wealth and status and they
    | refer to men this way even publicly. The cultural change is
    | mostly one sided, skewed more towards not offending women.
    | 
    | For example, referring to men as Hunks or Chads is just not
    | offensive at all. In fact it's a compliment. I feel it's
    | almost entitlement if a girl gets offended by being called a
    | babe.
 
    | badpun wrote:
    | I don't think so. The language used in 2023 may be different,
    | but the intent is the same: "Give them nudity, give them sex,
    | give them violence. This is what will make us money".
 
  | enkid wrote:
  | Also, use of the word "babes" screams mid nineties.
 
  | pavlov wrote:
  | Both human and Asian? That's real representation.
 
    | rogual wrote:
    | Don't know why you're flagged, that's hilarious. The PDF
    | literally lists "Asian" as a category of babe alongside
    | "Undead" and separately from "human".
 
      | arp242 wrote:
      | Can't recall any Asian character from the game though.
      | 
      | Time for an "Asian babes" mod I guess.
 
      | throwaway173738 wrote:
      | That's definitely pandering to the executives.
 
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Wow this reads so fresh, it's written beautifully. Even if you
| just skim it you get the point, and subjectively, it's very
| funny. I love the self-deprecating humor.
 
  | markeibes wrote:
  | Yeah objectively it's not very funny at all.
 
| klipklop wrote:
| Like others have said, the final game is different. One of the
| best games ever made with one of the most creative settings.
| 
| Really loved the NPC companions. They were so deep and some of
| them you could make more powerful just by having a conversation
| with them. It's a rare D&D property where wisdom is a more
| important stat than strength.
 
| corysama wrote:
| I'll just leave this here ;)
| 
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/466300/Planescape_Torment...
| 
| BTW: 4K resolution support.
 
  | fbdab103 wrote:
  | GOG DRM free alternative [0]
  | 
  | [0]
  | https://www.gog.com/en/game/planescape_torment_enhanced_edit...
 
| j1elo wrote:
| What were the chances? I installed Planescape Torment last night,
| to play around a bit with it. It's been sitting in my "to-try"
| list for at least 15 years!
| 
| I'm however not very fond of having to sit down on my desk to
| play games with keyboard and mouse, though... I already spend
| enough of my life sitting in the exact same position for work.
| That alone discourages me from playing several old games I own
| (and not so old, like the newer X-Com) and even the newer Monkey
| Island game (which of course is sitting in the same list for some
| years now too)
 
  | tmoravec wrote:
  | If it helps, I've played PS:T on an ipad and it was playable.
 
  | hombre_fatal wrote:
  | When I lived in a house with a treadmill, I hooked my Macbook
  | up to a TV and used a gamepad mapped to mouse (move, click,
  | scroll) input to play a lot of older games while walking. It's
  | what inspired me to build my own remap software.
  | 
  | Because yeah I can't sit at a computer to play games.
 
    | cmcmcm wrote:
    | Can you tell me more about the gamepad and software you used?
    | I've been looking for a decent solution like this for ages.
 
  | jaggederest wrote:
  | Well, if there's one game worth your time, PS:T is probably it.
  | Arguably one of the best cRPGs of all time.
 
    | WastingMyTime89 wrote:
    | People have rose tinted glasses when they talk about old
    | games.
    | 
    | PS:T was a cut above the other cRPGs of its time mainly
    | because it had adequate writing and an engaging story when
    | most other cRPGs were trite. Still everything after Raven's
    | maze is just average until the ending where it gets good
    | again and the gameplay outside of dialogue is frankly
    | uninteresting. It's in a lot of way like the original Dark
    | Soul whose last half is so aweful I'm not sure the awesome
    | first one is enough to redeem the game.
    | 
    | PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs. I'm not
    | sure it's worth revisiting considering how long it is.
 
      | xanathar wrote:
      | I am a Planescape Torment extreme fanboy and... I have to
      | agree.
      | 
      | But it's still worth playing, it is still better than the
      | median cRPG almost 25 years later, and it remains a
      | milestone in cRPGs history: i.e. just like Sgt Peppers or
      | Dark Side of the Moon are still worth listening today.
 
        | pcthrowaway wrote:
        | > Sgt Peppers
        | 
        | Interesting.. I consider this one of the best albums of
        | all time, unrelated to the "standards of the time" or
        | whatever.
        | 
        | I also don't think I've played a CRPG I enjoyed as much
        | as Planescape. Some of the fallout games may have been
        | pretty close, though I never finished any of them
 
        | fbdab103 wrote:
        | You do not get to lay down such criticism without
        | offering alternative suggestions. What is your top-tier
        | classic or modern cRPG?
        | 
        | Edit: Not a fanboy defensiveness or anything. Just rare
        | to see the contrarian opinion on this, and genuinely
        | curious. Other than the trash combat, I really enjoyed my
        | time with PST.
 
        | xanathar wrote:
        | I think all things considered BG2 aged better - it had
        | less exciting plot, but it balanced better all the
        | aspects.
        | 
        | That said, I would nudge Pillars of Eternity and
        | Pathfinder: Kingmaker above PST as they have an equally
        | good amount of story, NPC interaction, they balance
        | combat better. Pillars II, Wrath of the Righteous and
        | Tides of Numenera, otoh, are below the PST bar in my
        | opinion but ymmv depending on tastes. On the Divinity
        | side, DOS:2 is also a good competitor in the list,
        | although I find it the story tends to be too diluted by
        | combat.
        | 
        | Notably many of the titles I listed above have had
        | Avellone involved at some point (I think he had been
        | involved with Numenera, DOS:2, Pillars I and Kingmaker,
        | maybe more).
        | 
        | I was very skeptical about BG3, especially because even
        | if I listed DOS:2 above, I didn't really like it too
        | much, I'm no Larian fan. But I played the early access
        | and it seems to be golden good so far.
        | 
        | Otoh I replayed (for the billionth time?) all IE games
        | recently and while I still consider PST to be the best IE
        | game ever (only BG2 comes close) it's definitely not
        | uniform. The plot weakens after leaving Sigil, and so do
        | side quests and non-linearity (it's actually pretty
        | linear overall, but after Sigil it doesn't even maintain
        | the illusion). Even the interactions with NPCs are
        | sometimes lackluster (e.g. I would have "pushed" Morte
        | more on the "don't trust the skull" bit) I _felt_ (but it
        | 's personal opinion I'd say) that many interactions in
        | PoE went deeper than that.
        | 
        | Anyway, these are opinions and I know of at least one PST
        | fan who would trash the PoEs, Numenera and the
        | Pathfinders (but loved DOS:2), so YMMV.
 
      | pmoriarty wrote:
      | _" People have rose tinted glasses when they talk about old
      | games. PS:T was a cut above the other cRPGs of its time
      | mainly because it had adequate writing and an engaging
      | story when most other cRPGs were trite."_
      | 
      | Adequate writing? The writing of 99.9% of games is simply
      | atrocious, and PS:T was and still is miles above them.
      | 
      |  _" PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs"_
      | 
      | It's been bested on the gameplay and graphics level, but
      | I've yet to find a game with better writing.
 
      | jaggederest wrote:
      | I disagree. I'd be interested to hear which games you think
      | are comparable or superior - I'd like to play them, if I
      | haven't!
      | 
      | I think the only comparable games recently have been mostly
      | outside what I would consider the cRPG genre, taken
      | strictly: Elden ring, horizon zero dawn / forbidden west,
      | recent Zelda franchise entries, RDR/RDR2, I was a Teenage
      | Exocolonist
      | 
      | Witcher 3 is probably the strongest challenger, I think.
      | 
      | I haven't played Disco Elysium but I hear good things. I
      | don't think the Mass Effect series fully measures up,
      | though it's definitely in the ballpark. Same for the Elder
      | Scrolls series - suffers the opposite problem from PS:T,
      | that the gameplay is solid but the plot fails.
 
      | arp242 wrote:
      | The "game" part isn't very good and arguably it's more
      | "interactive fiction" than "game", but I don't think this
      | has anything to do with the age of it - this is the case
      | for quite a few RPGs that focus more on the story,
      | including newer ones. These kind of games trailing off a
      | bit towards the end is also somewhat common.
      | 
      | There are also very few cRPGs of the same type; maybe about
      | 20 in total? Note I don't consider all these first-person
      | action-RPGs the same "type"; it's cool if you're in to
      | that, but I'm not really.
      | 
      | At any rate, I don't think it's a perfect game, but IMHO it
      | holds up very well.
 
      | danq_ wrote:
      | >PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs. I'm
      | not sure it's worth revisiting considering how long it is.
      | 
      | I disagree. The story of PS:T is still superior in terms of
      | depth, writing, plot and setting.
      | 
      | The entire package is better than most fantasy or sci-fi
      | novels.
      | 
      | modern CRGPS are better in presentation and gameplay. But
      | setting and story is what sets Torment apart. It still
      | hasn't been bested.
      | 
      | I'm not looking at this through rose colored glasses
      | either. Like there are games I loved back then that I will
      | willingly admit are pretty bad nowadays. Zelda OOT, for
      | example. That game was revolutionary but it doesn't hold it
      | up, it's crap nowadays.
      | 
      | Planescape torment is not like that. There is literally
      | nothing else like it in the gaming world even today.
 
      | [deleted]
 
      | valvar wrote:
      | >It's in a lot of way like the original Dark Soul whose
      | last half is so aweful I'm not sure the awesome first one
      | is enough to redeem the game.
      | 
      | What are you talking about? I've never heard this take
      | before. I found it fantastic all the way through. Maybe
      | introducing the lord vessel was a poor design choice, but
      | it's a minor fault.
 
        | WastingMyTime89 wrote:
        | It's a fairly common opinion even amongst fans of the
        | Soul games. Basically everything after Anor Londo was
        | rushed through as the budget dwindled and the game had to
        | be released.
        | 
        | The catacombs are just a smudgy mess with a couple of
        | uninteresting ennemies and a mid-boss without any
        | worthwhile patterns. The depth is just reskinned old
        | ennemies you have to plod through one after the other
        | before what's probably the worst boss in the soul games.
        | Even the better areas like Duke's Archive, Crystal Cave
        | or New Londo are inferiorly designed retread of previous
        | ideas. The true genius of the game - the looping-on-
        | itself level design - is over and you spend your time in
        | this very bland linear areas wishing it was over already.
        | 
        | Honestly if the game stopped after fighting Orstein and
        | Smough, it would be a better game overall.
        | 
        | The DLC is good again however. You can tell FromSoft got
        | additional budget for it.
 
        | iamacyborg wrote:
        | If you want to see what rushed looks like, compare
        | Revenant[1] before and after the major underground
        | section.
        | 
        | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenant_(video_game)
 
        | tmtvl wrote:
        | Yeah, East Ahkuilon is pretty decent, the caves kinda
        | outstay their welcome, West Ahkuilon tries to hang in
        | there, but after you defeat Teleporty McFireball things
        | really take a nosedive.
 
        | bee_rider wrote:
        | There's lots of praise for the connected, looping level
        | design, and I see claims that the lord vessel ruins
        | that... but most of their subsequent games featured easy
        | teleportation, right? Walking around gets old, IMO.
 
        | tmtvl wrote:
        | The original Souls game, Demon's Souls also featured easy
        | teleportation. It's kinda like the difference between
        | Morrowind and Oblivion: in one game you're running around
        | everywhere until you get the means to fast travel and in
        | the other you can zip to and from discovered locations
        | from the start of the game.
 
      | Certhas wrote:
      | Talking about the gameplay outside the dialogue is a bit
      | silly though. Why people still love it are writing and
      | plot. The mechanics were simply the bog standard mechanics
      | of the day and don't matter much.
      | 
      | Which games would you say have bested it in terms of
      | writing/plot? I see a few but not very many really. Disco
      | Elysium would be the first but that also stands alone in
      | terms of quality. (That said, don't get to game much
      | anymore so could very well have missed a lot...).
 
        | Arainach wrote:
        | Dialog doesn't make it "one of the best cRPGs of all
        | time" or even necessarily worth playing in 2023. That's
        | the rose tinted glasses.
        | 
        | The gameplay is absolutely an important part of "should I
        | play this now".
        | 
        | Plenty of games that were good when they came out aren't
        | worth investing hours in today. Bioshock Infinite comes
        | to mind.
 
        | pcthrowaway wrote:
        | I disagree, I want a game to have either passable
        | gameplay or for its gameplay to just get out of the way.
        | 
        | If a game is relatively linear (think Last of Us, To the
        | Moon, Alan Wake), I'm actually inclined to just watch a
        | lets play because I can skip the "gameplay" parts.
        | 
        | Maybe that makes me the minority, but I don't think it
        | invalidates the opinions of people saying PS:T was a
        | phenomenal game even if the gameplay was nothing special
 
  | NikolaNovak wrote:
  | What are your other methods of playing besides keyboard and
  | mouse?
  | 
  | The newest monkey Island is steam Deck verified and also works
  | with gamepad on your tv computer etc :)
  | 
  | I think new x-com games are steam deck playable. And original
  | xcom game is eminently playable on any old laptop :)
 
    | NamTaf wrote:
    | One of the steam deck's really underappreciated features is
    | the trackpads. You can use them to play a whole heap of KB+M
    | games that were otherwise off bounds for a handheld.
    | 
    | I've been playing through the Sam & Max episodic games this
    | way: trackpad for pointer, and buttons for clicks. It doesn't
    | need fast-paced interactions so it's very forgiving there.
    | When more speed is needed, I've heard others combine the
    | trackpad with some minor gyro mouse input such that the
    | touchpad does the coarse pointer manipulation and then gyro
    | does the fine detail. Apparently you can get quite fast with
    | this approach.
 
  | VHRanger wrote:
  | P:T is available on android as a beamdog port.
  | 
  | It plays very nicely for that format.
 
  | User23 wrote:
  | The Torment enhanced edition plays great on the iPad. I assume
  | there is an Android release too.
 
  | pluijzer wrote:
  | PS:T is also available for iOS, Android and Switch. The
  | controls have been adapted for the platforms and play great.
  | 
  | And ofcourse like others have pointed out the Steam Deck is
  | amazing also older games.
  | 
  | The new Monkey Island is also available for atleast the Switch
  | btw.
 
    | j1elo wrote:
    | Sadly the deprecation of 32-bit Android apps has done a lot
    | of damage to backwards compatibility...
    | 
    |  _Wonder what would have happened if Android was a Microsoft
    | platform_ :-)
    | 
    | https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/87197/pst-ee-on-
    | androi...
    | 
    | Basically, the game doesn't work any more on my Android 13
    | device, because devs need to go back to it and recompile the
    | sources for 64-bit ARM.
    | 
    | Naturally with a change like that with no compatibility layer
    | available, there will be tons of apps and games left behind
    | as abandonware, because their devs have better things to do
    | (if they are even still around, at all!) than going back and
    | recompiling all their source code. We'll see if BeamDog ever
    | gets to it for PS:T!
 
  | axus wrote:
  | I purchased "Planescape: Torment: Enhanced" in Google Play on
  | my Amazon Fire tablet a couple years ago. Probably missed out
  | on a few keyboard shortcuts, but like you I don't sit at the
  | computer for gaming much anymore.
 
  | channel_t wrote:
  | I definitely feel this ever since switching primarily to remote
  | work. I buy PC games periodically that are often amazing but I
  | struggle to find myself able to dedicate much time to them
  | because I already spend way too much time in the room taking
  | care of work stuff. Console games are more doable because I can
  | play them on the couch.
  | 
  | Does this make me want to go back into the office full time?
  | Not sure. The quick commute from my bed to my desk might be
  | worth the sacrifice, but part of me definitely longs for the
  | work of the before times.
 
  | modeless wrote:
  | Seems like this is the problem Steam Deck solves.
 
    | hutzlibu wrote:
    | How do you replace a mouse with it?
    | 
    | Is it with a touchscreen or knobs on the side?
    | 
    | I think I would still miss a mouse for precision and speed
    | with that ..
 
      | mateuszf wrote:
      | It has a touchscreen, two joysticks and two touchpad likes
      | surfaces, you can configure them how you like.
      | 
      | However the screen is 7 inches and text in games like this
      | or early Fallouts is too small for me, so I planned to use
      | SD for them but resigned.
 
      | WillAdams wrote:
      | Most of the Infinity Engine games play very well on a
      | Windows tablet with an active stylus.
      | 
      | Unfortunately, PST is an early iteration of the engine and
      | I had problems with inventory manipulation --- not sure if
      | that was ever addressed.
 
      | IggleSniggle wrote:
      | There are capacitive touchpads on both sides of the deck,
      | but calling them that really sells them short. It has an
      | extensive controller mapping system. I play a lot of
      | strategy and RTS games, and they can be set up with a wide
      | variety of customizable overlays and haptics, that you can
      | mix with button-chording as desired
 
        | NamTaf wrote:
        | It's worth also emphasising that they can be combined, so
        | that you can combine the touchpads with the gyro such
        | that the touchpads do coarse mouse movement and the gyro
        | does the fine tweaking. This is apparently surprisingly
        | effective, though I've not tried it myself.
        | 
        | Similarly, for FPS the gyro can be used for additional
        | aiming and even set such that it's only enabled when one
        | of the joysticks is touched (via the capacitive
        | receiver).
 
    | j1elo wrote:
    | The Steam Deck came to completely replace my gaming on PC
    | precisely because of this, but mouse+keyboard type games are
    | a mixed bag of experiences... depends a lot on each game.
    | 
    | This one seems to run great, touch screen probably helps a
    | lot. Only complaints seem to be small text on screen:
    | 
    | https://www.protondb.com/app/466300
    | 
    | I also wasn't able to adapt to first person shooters, after a
    | life of playing with mouse, it is almost impossible for me to
    | not feel that gamepad controls are clunky.
 
| gilbetron wrote:
| My gaming group had a big ole Planescape campaign in 1995/1996,
| and the DM, myself and my then-girlfriend, now wife, went to
| Gencon. We met the creators, and did some fun little Planescape
| sessions they had set up. In our campaign, my wife was playing a
| red-headed tiefling with a devil's tail named Lilah. Being nerds,
| we of course told the Planescape devs all about our campaign. My
| wife even has a sketch of Lilah from Tony D in the (then, just
| released) Planewalker's Handbook.
| 
| In 1997, Planescape Torment came out, and we loved it. However,
| it was a bit shocking to find they had an NPC named Annah, that
| was a red-headed tiefling with a devil's tail. We still think
| Annah was heavily drawn from Lilah!
 
  | Waterluvian wrote:
  | While the redhead devil tiefling" motif is very common due to
  | the horns and core concept behind the race, that's a really
  | warming story nevertheless.
 
    | gilbetron wrote:
    | This was actually before the 3rd edition take on tieflings
    | with the horns, although we agree it isn't an uncommon motif,
    | except almost no one knew much about Planescape in 1996 - the
    | events were really sparse because it was considered a really
    | "weird" setting by the core attendees of Gencon. It was
    | literally the three of us, one or two other people, and most
    | of the Planescape devs. Which was fun hanging out with them,
    | including Tony D, Monte Cook, Colin and several others. The
    | next year, in 1997, the three of us went again, and there was
    | a trivia contest for Planescape lore. They had to stop
    | letting us answer questions because we were ringers :)
 
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Not mentioned: "over 800,000 words of dialogue, our game will be
| remembered as the best eight D&D visual novels ever written".
| It's interesting how much of this pitch focusses on the gameplay
| when it's the extensive writing that ends up being memorable.
 
  | pmoriarty wrote:
  | That's probably because the last thing studio execs (and
  | gamers, who eat up so much shoddily written garbage) care about
  | is writing.
  | 
  | If gamers rewarded well-written games, and avoided poorly
  | written ones, pitches would focus a lot more on writing.
 
| sn41 wrote:
| I played Planescape back around 2015 or so, for the first time. I
| felt an uncanny similarity to the movie "Memento" by Christopher
| Nolan, which, coincidentally, was filmed around the same time,
| developing on themes from the earlier movie "Following" (that
| came out in 1998).
| 
| Then I came to know that this was actually a major point of
| discussion, with various theories swirling around it.
 
| sametmax wrote:
| I often wish they make this game a TV show or even a series of
| movies, because the scenario, beyond the fact it's amazingly
| good, has potential for a lot of new arcs, thanks to the very
| concept of the game.
| 
| Characters scream for a bigger screen, with colorful
| personalities and back stories, plus they got a design made to
| scale to awesomeness.
| 
| And with the world building, you got a solid base plus endless
| possibilities.
| 
| I enjoyed the game very much, but let's face it, it's too old for
| most new gamers to appreciate.
 
| anthk wrote:
| I remind you all that GemRB runs BG 1/2 and Planescape Torment
| under GNU/Linux, OSX, Windows, Mac, Android... with ease.
 
| GartzenDeHaes wrote:
| > 1 security vendor flagged this URL as malicious (Phishing)
| 
| https://www.virustotal.com/gui/url/9ed70fc608cd35117a0079556...
 
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