[HN Gopher] Judge rules Wyoming corner crossers did not trespass
___________________________________________________________________
 
Judge rules Wyoming corner crossers did not trespass
 
Author : bikenaga
Score  : 173 points
Date   : 2023-05-31 17:57 UTC (1 days ago)
 
web link (www.hcn.org)
w3m dump (www.hcn.org)
 
| dools wrote:
| > The men corner-crossed in 2020 and 2021 to hunt public land
| enmeshed in Eshelman's 22,045-acre ranch.
| 
| What sort of a sociopathic son of a bitch do you have to be to
| tie up so many resources on such a minor transgression? That dude
| eats babies for sure.
 
| thehappypm wrote:
| Uck eah! his s uch a ig in or ublic ands!
 
  | bikenaga wrote:
  | :-) My bad! I'd fix it if there were a way.
 
    | dang wrote:
    | Fixed now!
    | 
    | (Submitted title was "Udge rules Wyoming corner crossers did
    | not trespass")
 
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Excellent outcome.
| 
| Previous discussion:
| 
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33860346
 
  | dang wrote:
  | Thanks! Macroexpanded:
  | 
  |  _6M Acres of Public Land in the US West Are Corner-Locked_ -
  | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34143365 - Dec 2022 (183
  | comments)
  | 
  |  _The Wyoming corner crossing case_ -
  | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33860346 - Dec 2022 (74
  | comments)
  | 
  |  _A navigation app that illuminates public land within
  | privately held property_ -
  | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33753467 - Nov 2022 (181
  | comments)
 
| mcv wrote:
| It's bizarre to me that this is even an issue at all. How does
| the landowner justify millions of damage even if they had walked
| on his land? Is there no right to cross private property if
| that's the only reasonable way to reach public land? There should
| be.
 
  | ryandrake wrote:
  | It's ridiculous that this case got anywhere within the court
  | system. Imagine a grown man angry that some other grown man
  | stepped _over_ a square-foot corner of his precious 22,045
  | acres of dirt to get onto some other area of dirt. This is like
  | my brother and I arguing over who 's hand was on who's side of
  | the back seat of the car when we were pre-schoolers. How much
  | time, money, and energy was wasted on this clowning?
 
    | RandallBrown wrote:
    | If the only way to access that land is through the corners of
    | that guys property, by preventing access that way he
    | essentially gets that land for his own personal use.
 
      | kelnos wrote:
      | I get that, but it's still pretty disgusting. As if tens of
      | thousands of acres of land and millions of dollars in the
      | bank isn't enough for someone. These people are a stain on
      | humanity.
 
        | ryandrake wrote:
        | Wealthy people have no idea what "enough" means. This guy
        | could use his time to explore a different acre of _his
        | own land_ every day for 50 years and still not visit his
        | entire property. Instead he 's going to court to try to
        | block people from accessing land that isn't even his.
 
    | crtified wrote:
    | While most cases don't make international news, the sad
    | reality is that ostensibly petty or trivial real estate
    | arguments consume vast resources globally - this case is the
    | figurative drop in the ocean. And really, they always have -
    | this isn't new, any more than your quoted bickering-children
    | example is.
    | 
    | The reason is the same reason that 'real estate' earned the
    | key descriptor 'real'. People will literally go to war over
    | two things: people, and land (*some would add religion, but
    | I'd suggest that's generally been a convenient excuse under
    | which lay the truly motivating people+land end goals).
 
  | sethev wrote:
  | It's a (selfish) issue for the landowner because previously
  | they could treat this public land as if it was theirs
  | effectively, since other people don't have access to it. This
  | ruling doesn't change that for public land that doesn't share
  | at least a corner with private property.
 
    | ryandrake wrote:
    | It shouldn't even be possible to capture an area of public
    | land for yourself by buying all the land around it,
    | effectively land-locking it from the public. How stupid of
    | the government to even let the scenario happen in the first
    | place. I like the idea of another commenter: The government
    | should just take narrow easements around the borders of all
    | public lands, _and_ paths through private lands for the cases
    | where some area of public land is surrounded like this.
 
      | drewmol wrote:
      | An offer of compensatory acreage adjacent to and redraw of
      | property lines may entice support.
 
  | 082349872349872 wrote:
  | Outside the US, there are even many jurisdictions which make
  | this question of easements moot, by having general rights to
  | roam.
 
    | lolc wrote:
    | That was a surprising lesson for me when I was roaming
    | California and asked a local how to reach that hill: "You
    | can't, it's private." Hadn't encountered the idea before that
    | one could restrict access to forest like that.
 
    | dylan604 wrote:
    | This was one of the things I was enamored with when I visited
    | New Zealand. It was my first experience with that.
 
      | fragmede wrote:
      | The Swedish call it Allemansratten and it's lovely.
 
      | teruakohatu wrote:
      | Unfortunately in New Zealand we have no right to roam,
      | beyond riverbeds and beaches. Access is negotiated, often
      | by the Department of Conservation or a regional council,
      | sometimes in exchange for paying a share in maintenance of
      | an access road.
      | 
      | This often means you might be able to walk through farmers
      | paddocks, to access a track, but little guarantee that you
      | could do this in the future.
 
  | throwaway173738 wrote:
  | Every man deserves his day in court.
 
    | dylan604 wrote:
    | And the first step of that court process should be a judge
    | deciding if a case has merit or not.
 
      | compiler-guy wrote:
      | Aka "summary judgement", where the judge assumes everything
      | side A alleges is true, and evaluates if there is even a
      | justiciable claim. If there isn't, the judge grants summary
      | judgement to side B.
      | 
      | The thing is, law is complex, overlapping, and often
      | unintuitive. Especially property law. Although a non lawyer
      | might think a claim is stupid or ridiculous, the law itself
      | might not see it that way.
      | 
      | This is one of those times. I believe we have the right
      | outcome here and it's a great day, but usually when non
      | lawyers think a case is legally obvious, they are wrong.
      | 
      | The case may be morally obvious--as here--but law and
      | morality are different things. And just because the law
      | ought to be obvious--again, as here--doesn't mean it is
      | obvious.
 
      | diogocp wrote:
      | That's what happened:
      | 
      | > Chief U.S. District Judge Scott Skavdahl granted the
      | hunters' request to dismiss most of Eshelman's lawsuit
 
  | ckwalsh wrote:
  | I'm guessing along the lines of:
  | 
  | * Before hunters were corner cutting, the land was more
  | desirable and I could have sold it for $X
  | 
  | * With hunters now corner cutting, the land is less desirable,
  | due to the hunting activity, and can only be sold for $Y
  | 
  | * $X - $Y = $7 million
 
  | axus wrote:
  | Usually the courts will decide in favor of the public's right
  | to beach access. Here's one example:
  | https://news.yahoo.com/venture-capitalist-khosla-loses-calif...
 
    | CoastalCoder wrote:
    | IIUC, this is enshrined in Rhode Island's constitution, as
    | mentioned here [0].
    | 
    | [0] http://www.crmc.ri.gov/publicaccess/PublicAccess_Brochure
    | .pd...
 
    | jacobolus wrote:
    | In California beaches are public property and the CA coastal
    | commission (established in the 1970s) has the responsibility
    | of protecting the beaches and guaranteeing access.
    | https://www.coastal.ca.gov/whoweare.html
 
  | rippercushions wrote:
  | If corner crossing is not possible, the value of his private
  | property increases by the value of the notionally public land
  | that's effectively exclusively his now. If corner crossing _is_
  | allowed, then that value is stripped away and he  "loses"
  | millions.
  | 
  | Of course, this claim of damages collapses in a puff of logic
  | when you point out that he never should have had exclusive
  | access in the first place. Maybe he can sue the judge next?
 
    | dylan604 wrote:
    | >Maybe he can sue the judge next?
    | 
    | AKA an appeal
 
    | CottonMcKnight wrote:
    | It's a puff of logic in either circumstance:
    | 
    | If he's wrong, he never had exclusive rights to public land
    | in the first place and it was not his to lose.
    | 
    | If he's right, he obviously did not suffer the loss of the
    | value of that property.
 
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| The sheer rapaciousness of these multi-hundred millionaires is
| just disgusting. I'm glad to see that public opinion is largely
| starting to turn against these billionaire types as "geniuses" to
| boils on the ass of humanity.
 
  | coffeebeqn wrote:
  | This is their worst nightmare. Some disgusting poors milling
  | about their hundreds (thousands?) of acres
 
    | x3874 wrote:
    | [flagged]
 
      | SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
      | Similar issue with "The Narrows" in TX, but instead
      | relating to the riverbed:
      | https://texasriverbum.com/index.php/2014/09/17/hike-and-
      | hass...
 
| lazide wrote:
| The most bizarre thing about this situation is that IT WAS ALWAYS
| ILLEGAL FOR THE LANDOWNER TO BLOCK LAND THIS WAY. Since 1885.
| 
| [https://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=23&page=322]
 
  | arcticbull wrote:
  | Yes, well, if we relied on settled and trivially obvious law to
  | decide these things, what would Vinod Khosla do in his spare
  | time?
  | 
  | Besides of course chasing beachgoers down the waterfront with
  | his rake. [1, 2]
  | 
  | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/01/vinod-
  | kh...
  | 
  | [2]
  | https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/01/08/califor...
 
| The_Schwartz wrote:
| [flagged]
 
  | The_Schwartz wrote:
  | Eh maybe I'm being harsh calling him that. It's been a long
  | day. I don't think I'm wrong though
 
    | solarmist wrote:
    | That's fine. HN just isn't the place for that.
 
    | angry_octet wrote:
    | You're not wrong;
    | 
    | https://wyofile.com/corner-crossing-landowner-gave-
    | millions-...
 
| [deleted]
 
| Eduard wrote:
| For those out of the loop just as I was:
| 
| https://www.onxmaps.com/onx-access-initiatives/corner-crossi...
| 
| > What they had done was place an A-frame ladder across an
| intersection of property boundaries, the location where four
| parcels of land meet at a point. They climbed up one side of the
| ladder from public land, and down the other side of the ladder,
| stepping kitty-corner onto a different parcel of public land. But
| in doing so, their bodies also crossed through the airspace of
| the other two parcels meeting at that point, which were private.
| Their trial, set for mid-April, will decide if they trespassed
| when they passed through that private airspace.
| 
| This sounds so constructed, as if they wanted to provoke the
| precedent.
 
  | hadlock wrote:
  | Weirdly I think this is not constructed, hunters are moderately
  | heavy users of public lands and land rights are pretty
  | important to that group. I believe they are entitled to enter
  | public land and at the same time respect land right usage of
  | private land owners, and the ladder is a discreet and harmless
  | way to access public lands. The argument that they intersected
  | the airspace of private land momentarily, with no damages,
  | likely falls under accidental or unintentional violation.
  | 
  | That said, the goal is to access additional public land. I
  | struggle to see how the supreme court will fall on the side of
  | private landowners and might even punitively add that vehicular
  | access to private land might be allowed in the future. Right
  | now it's only "on foot". This ruling has an enormous body of
  | evidence and research behind it, this isn't a small issue for a
  | large number of people; they just don't overlap much with the
  | HN community very much.
 
  | michaelhoffman wrote:
  | How else are they supposed to cross from one corner to the
  | other?
 
    | yaur wrote:
    | They are supposed to pay the rancher a trespass fee to be
    | allowed access to the public land through their property or
    | hire a guide that has a commercial agreement with rancher
    | that includes access to the public lands.
 
      | jjulius wrote:
      | Or, they could just... ask. Never a guarantee, but still an
      | option until this issue can be more clearly defined from a
      | legal standpoint.
      | 
      | >"Last year, a couple of dads from Missoula and their sons
      | showed up and asked me if they could hunt here. I told them
      | to give me 15 minutes and I'd take them out with me. We got
      | some really nice mule deer bucks for their sons, and they
      | helped me work cattle the next day. We got some antelope
      | for the dads the day after. So we had fun. One of them even
      | bought beef from me this year."
      | 
      | https://www.onxmaps.com/onx-access-initiatives/corner-
      | crossi...
 
    | idopmstuff wrote:
    | Just step across.
 
      | californical wrote:
      | Which is also illegal, btw, due to terrible us laws around
      | public land
 
        | Eduard wrote:
        | Just build a ladder high enough.
        | 
        | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights
 
        | labster wrote:
        | I see you, and raise you _Cuius est solum, eius est usque
        | ad coelum et ad inferos_
        | 
        | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_est_solum,_eius_est
        | _us...
 
        | LastTrain wrote:
        | Seems as though it is not illegal, at least according to
        | this ruling?
 
        | labster wrote:
        | Not according to this ruling. But still possibly illegal
        | in another federal circuit.
 
      | Jtsummers wrote:
      | From reading the article, it appears that there was a fence
      | (presumably intersecting sections of fence) that had to be
      | overcome. Climbing the fences would be, nominally, stepping
      | foot on those fenced properties. Using the ladder let them
      | go over the corner boundary without actually having to step
      | foot on the other two adjacent properties.
      | | Public           ---+---       Public |
      | 
      | The fences belong to the private properties (if my
      | understanding is correct) and the ladder lets them
      | technically remain only, with regard to "setting foot", on
      | the public properties.
 
    | hadlock wrote:
    | The ruling very intentionally says "on foot", which limits it
    | to people walking across. Leaves the door open for future
    | debate/interpretation about vehicular traffic. You might be
    | able to design an offroad vehicle that can "step" across the
    | boundary but by my (non-lawyer) reading this isn't covered by
    | that.
 
    | Eduard wrote:
    | By digging a tunnel, for instance
 
  | lolinder wrote:
  | The plaintiff's complaint is so contrived that I almost wonder
  | if it's _all_ a setup to get this law overturned. No judge in
  | their right mind would award anything close to the damages that
  | they 're asking for, and their argument in favor of the damages
  | is the perfect illustration for how bad the law is:
  | 
  | > Eshelman asserts that when the men corner-crossed -- stepping
  | from one piece of public land to another at a four-corner
  | intersection with his ranch -- they damaged him by up to $7.75
  | million.
  | 
  | > That's based on a 25% devaluation of the Elk Mountain Ranch,
  | appraised at $31.1 million in 2017.
  | 
  | > Rinehart would discount the ranch by 30% if corner crossing
  | was declared legal, he said in an affidavit. His figure would
  | raise alleged damages to a total of $9.39 million.
  | 
  | So the argument essentially is "this law gives me de facto
  | ownership of 25% more property than I actually own, and these
  | guys trying to cross it somehow sets a precedent to set that
  | land free". IANAL, but on the face of it that makes zero sense
  | because two dudes breaking the law doesn't undo the law.
  | 
  | However, if they're not actually trying to win, this is a
  | pretty solid argument to make if you're trying to persuade a
  | judge to legalize corner crossing.
  | 
  | https://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/wyoming/article_a519...
 
    | londons_explore wrote:
    | > However, if they're not actually trying to win,
    | 
    | Is it illegal to take a case to court with the intention to
    | lose yet set precident?
 
    | roywiggins wrote:
    | That theory is even weird on its own merits! If they lost,
    | and were found liable for damages, then other crossers would
    | be dissuaded, and no damages occurred...
 
  | petsfed wrote:
  | Given that OnX makes its money off of facilitating access to
  | recreational land, this report was surprisingly fair in
  | describing land-owner concerns.
  | 
  | I am pretty strongly for access to public land, but even I
  | could appreciate the concerns re: bad apples being encouraged
  | by this particular case. That is, if you already have an issue
  | with people illegally accessing your land, then opening the
  | door for more people to attempt to access public land by
  | passing through some mathematically precise point in space does
  | in fact invite people who aren't so careful to cross _near_ the
  | corner. I 've seen enough braided trails and "no motorized
  | vehicle" signs busted and mashed into tire tracks to believe
  | that concern. And the reality is that all it takes to do
  | irreparable harm is 1 bad actor, because they can do so much
  | damage.
  | 
  | All of that said, I think it's vitally important that western
  | states do something to make it impossible to sue a _trespasser_
  | for whatever loss of value you perceive when the public land
  | you thought you locked up remains public.
  | 
  | I can see suing a trespasser for the cost of reclaiming a
  | social trail that they happened to get caught on. But I cannot
  | see suing a trespasser for 25% of the value of a $31M real
  | estate transaction, because it turned out that a bogus legal
  | theory about "owning" land that's not actually in the deed is,
  | in fact, bogus. If the landowner can make a compelling case
  | that the previous owner, or the facilitating real estate
  | agents, convinced the new owner of that bogus theory, then
  | sure, sue _them_ for the lost  "value". But not the guys who
  | went out of their way to avoid causing any real (in the legal
  | sense) damage.
 
    | maxerickson wrote:
    | If there's no evidence that the trespasser is substantially
    | responsible for the trail, suing them is ridiculous too.
 
| kens wrote:
| In case anyone was wondering about the $7.75 million clamed
| damages, the claim is that allowing corner-crossing would cause
| the ranch to lose 25% of its value, and the ranch is currently
| valued at $31.1 million. Details:
| https://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/wyoming/article_a519...
| 
| (I'm not justifying this claim, of course, just providing
| information in case anyone was wondering where the number came
| from.)
| 
| Edit: the number came from a real estate agent acting as an
| expert witness, who said he would drop the value by 25% or 30%;
| it's not a mathematical/geometrical argument.
 
  | bckygldstn wrote:
  | With that logic it doesn't seem like the hunters are liable for
  | the damages? The hunters aren't the ones deciding if corner-
  | crossing is allowed.
  | 
  | Even the court seems faultless here. It's not re-zoning their
  | land, it's clarifying a law that already existed. The owner had
  | an incorrect pre-ruling valuation.
  | 
  | This case is especially crazy cause the landowners sued the
  | hunters: if they hadn't sued there wouldn't have been any
  | damages, maybe they should sue themselves!
 
    | roywiggins wrote:
    | And if the court found them liable for the damages, that
    | would be enforcing a no-border-crossing rule, and so no
    | damages actually occured on that theory! It's self-negating.
 
  | dools wrote:
  | > Attorneys for Elk Mountain Ranch owner Fred Eshelman last
  | week designated real estate agent James Rinehart of Laramie as
  | an expert witness in Eshelman's civil suit against the hunters
  | 
  | Nothing more credible than a local real estate agent being paid
  | to serve as an expert witness by the prosecution team of a guy
  | that owns a 22,045-acre ranch! He probably had a sniper dot on
  | his forehead during the testimony.
 
  | thorncorona wrote:
  | The owner, Fredric N Eshelman, and his lawyers by the way:
  | 
  | > "Do they realize how much money my boss has ... and
  | property?" Grende said.
  | 
  | https://wyofile.com/corner-crossing-video-do-they-realize-ho...
 
  | karaterobot wrote:
  | I was wondering exactly that, thank you for elucidating.
  | 
  | Reading into it more than I should, it seems to me like what
  | the plaintiff actually believed is that if people thought they
  | could corner cross, it would reduce the value of the property,
  | because it would mean that more people would be emboldened to
  | do it. One group of ladder-bearing hunterrs wouldn't do it
  | themselves, and without the right to cross his property being
  | set in precedent, many groups probably avoided doing it for
  | fear of being sued. The legal gray area dissuaded them. No
  | more! This is one of those times when opening the box killed
  | the cat.
 
  | FpUser wrote:
  | >"allowing corner-crossing would cause the ranch to lose 25% of
  | its value"
  | 
  | Somebody should stop taking those shrooms.
 
  | lolinder wrote:
  | The horrific reason for this figure is that owning a square in
  | this ridiculous checkerboard is equivalent to owning 1/4 stake
  | in the squares of public land that it's adjacent to. If you own
  | four black squares on the checkerboard on all sides of a single
  | white square, you _also_ own the white square, because you are
  | the only person who can legally pass through onto the public
  | land.
  | 
  | By citing this figure, the plaintiffs are essentially admitting
  | that they are claiming de facto ownership over the public's
  | land.
 
    | hadlock wrote:
    | By this logic of five squares, wouldn't that reduce the value
    | by 20%
 
      | lolinder wrote:
      | This ranch apparently consists of quite a few squares in a
      | complicated pattern, but even if it were just the four it
      | wouldn't end up being exactly 20% because you would have to
      | factor in the partial ownership of every adjacent public
      | square, not just the one you surround completely.
 
        | londons_explore wrote:
        | Looking at the map in the article, it looks like it is
        | pretty much a checkerboard. Ie. Half is owned, half is
        | not. So you'd expect a 50% reduction (minus a couple of
        | percent for edge squares which are not yet enclosed)
 
        | lolinder wrote:
        | Which article has a map of this ranch? I've been looking
        | but haven't found one.
 
        | londons_explore wrote:
        | Inset on the left, about a third of the way down
        | 
        | It's a blurry map, but seems to show this ranch (in
        | yellow)
 
    | anotherhue wrote:
    | The property planning department must have been fans of Go.
 
| Aardwolf wrote:
| What is this claimed $7.5 million in damages by stepping over a
| corner of land about? The wooden beam from the photograph got
| scratched or something?
 
  | quickthrowman wrote:
  | I assume they're including the value of the public land that
  | was 'inaccessible' (not actually inaccessible as we found out)
  | as part of the ranch, which is a ridiculous notion that
  | should've been summarily dismissed with prejudice so the
  | plaintiff could not re-file or appeal the verdict, but this
  | ruling is a good one.
 
    | Aardwolf wrote:
    | Hmm, what actually happens then if you'd have a fully
    | enclosed piece of public land without even any corners to
    | reach it?
 
      | quickthrowman wrote:
      | It becomes landlocked and only accessible by land to the
      | landowner(s) of the surrounding parcels. It is still
      | accessible by air, but chartering a chopper is very
      | expensive.
      | 
      | I'm not sure what rules there are if there's a navigable
      | waterway that goes into the public land through private
      | land, there may be issues if you have to portage around
      | obstacles on the river onto the private land. I would
      | assume that if you can access the navigable waterway from
      | public land, you are allowed to use it to reach the
      | landlocked public land by traveling along the waterway
      | through private land, but I'm not 100% sure.
 
        | SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
        | Brought this up as a sibling comment in this thread, but
        | "The Narrows" in Texas is almost precisely what you
        | describe:
        | https://texasriverbum.com/index.php/2014/09/17/hike-and-
        | hass...
 
        | quickthrowman wrote:
        | Thanks for sharing this, it was an interesting read!
 
      | macksd wrote:
      | I own land in this general vicinity, and part of the
      | purchase process that the title insurance company covered
      | when I bought it was ensuring that not only was I really
      | purchasing what I thought I was purchasing, but that access
      | to the land was guaranteed: I and all the plots around me
      | have easements where a quasi-government entity guarantees
      | roads that connect my plot to county roads, then state
      | highways, then interstate highways.
      | 
      | I would say that if land was purchased that completely
      | blocked off access to public land without such easements,
      | somebody screwed up royally with regard to such easements.
      | Not sure if that's what actually happened with the land in
      | question?
      | 
      | edit: actually reading an article linked within the one
      | linked here: "This is a murky legal area, due in part to
      | the failure of Congress to ensure access to landlocked
      | federal public lands". So yeah, someone screwed up royally
      | and it was Congress.
 
| irthomasthomas wrote:
| I'm surprised landowners in Wyoming own the airspace above their
| land. Normally you are only allowed to control as much airspace
| as required for the ordinary enjoyment of your property (for
| buildings and such).
| https://law.justia.com/codes/wyoming/2019/title-10/chapter-4...
 
| kjs3 wrote:
| US$7.75 million in damages for (rereads it) stepping on someones
| property? That's some next-level douchebaggery right there. It's
| a shame the lawyers involved won't get sanctioned for not telling
| their PoS client "that's not going to go over well"[1].
| 
| [1] "Any damages Eshelman would claim for that alleged
| transgression would be limited to "nominal damages" and not the
| $7.75 million Eshelman had claimed in lost ranch value, the judge
| wrote."
 
  | kens wrote:
  | The claim is that allowing corner-crossing would cause the
  | ranch to lose 25% of its value, and the ranch is currently
  | valued at $31.1 million. Details:
  | https://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/wyoming/article_a519...
  | 
  | (I'm not justifying this claim, of course, just providing
  | information in case anyone was wondering where the number came
  | from.)
 
  | giaour wrote:
  | > US$7.75 million in damages for (rereads it) stepping on
  | someones property?
  | 
  | Not even stepping on private property, just crossing through
  | its airspace.
 
    | dragonwriter wrote:
    | No, while the airspace and touching a pole allegations were
    | just dismissed, there was also--and still is--a "trespassing
    | by foot elsewhere on the property" allegation that is still
    | live, and it is that allegation to which the comment about
    | "nominal damages" applies. So the original $7.75 million
    | claim wasn't _just_ for corner crossing.
 
      | kjs3 wrote:
      | Oh, well that makes it way more reasonable. /s :-)
      | 
      | I guess I shouldn't be surprised. My wife does some work on
      | the medical side of the Personal Injury industry and
      | there's always some comedy about PI lawyers trying to juice
      | the moral equivalent of a stubbed toe into a 7-figure case.
 
| londons_explore wrote:
| For some reason, this domain is blocked by my ISP's illegal
| content filter.
| 
| So here is a mirror: https://archive.ph/vVoLH
 
| kortex wrote:
| Great ruling. The private/public checkerboard is pretty bizarre
| in the first place. A much more forethought approach would be to
| add a public buffer around everything (basically shrink the
| private plots by 6' or so).
 
  | drewmol wrote:
  | Yes a public access easement should suffice, similar to how
  | beaches are defied in some areas, waterways usually are. But
  | how big is reasonable? Is it for vehicle access and/or larger
  | equipment or only human sized objects?
 
  | cyberax wrote:
  | The keywords are "reasonable accommodation". E.g. in California
  | if you have a property near a beach that completely blocks
  | access, you have to provide a reasonable way to it.
  | 
  | And there's no need to shrink all the plots if there's a
  | reasonable way already present.
 
  | m463 wrote:
  | > basically shrink the private plots by 6' or so
  | 
  | Might make sense where land is amazingly spacious (like wyoming
  | in this case), but I wonder how that would work in other
  | locales, say row houses, or manhattan or california lots which
  | are measured in square feet...
 
    | PLenz wrote:
    | New York has a law to cover exactly this - the landlord has
    | to provide acess through the building. This (and other zoning
    | shenanigans) is why so many buildings in NYC have public
    | atriums or plazas attached. Of course many of those are also
    | conveniently locked all the time because the landlords
    | "forget" that they're public space.
 
    | jacobolus wrote:
    | If you have 2 row houses touching corner-to-corner and the
    | other two corners are both public land with one side
    | otherwise inaccessible, something is going pretty wrong.
 
    | [deleted]
 
  | Gordonjcp wrote:
  | Shrink them by 3m or 10%, whichever is greater.
 
  | labster wrote:
  | The checkerboard makes sense in the 19th century context.
  | Railroads were funded by land speculators, but the government
  | doesn't want to give them all the best land. Since
  | public/private is a binary distinction, they halftoned the
  | land, sharing the profits and producing the legal gray area we
  | see today.
 
  | DavidPeiffer wrote:
  | It would have been interesting if the west was divided into
  | hexagons which tessellate perfectly and don't have this
  | particular problem.
  | 
  | I am curious with the technology available at the time, how
  | much either method would have increased the surveying time,
  | accuracy, and other generally important parameters?
 
    | dmurray wrote:
    | It's not immediately obvious to me how you colour 50% of
    | hexagons equally dispersed on an infinite grid without
    | cutting some areas off, can you provide a picture?
 
      | DavidPeiffer wrote:
      | Well shoot...yes, that part fails.
      | 
      | Perhaps hexagons cut in half (causing 6-corner
      | intersections) or the isosceles trapezoid pattern below
      | would work.
      | 
      | https://robertlovespi.net/2020/06/03/tessellation-of-
      | isoscel...
      | 
      | Partly it'd be cool to have it look like Settlers of Catan.
 
  | omgwtfbyobbq wrote:
  | Yeah. There should be implied easements around private land
  | that borders public land.
  | 
  | You can do what you want as long as you do block passage
  | between adjacent, or event reasonable nearby, public land.
 
| ortusdux wrote:
| Are we going to start seeing rounded corners on parcels now?
 
  | dylan604 wrote:
  | They will need to update the plat maps to use padding instead
  | of just using margins. maybe start using box-sizing:content-box
  | rather than border-box too? but, border-radius could be
  | effective as well.
 
  | connicpu wrote:
  | It probably should have been that way to begin with if you
  | didn't buy either of the parcels that connect the two corner
  | parcels
 
| IvyMike wrote:
| I would be a terrible rich person, since I wouldn't care one whit
| about someone crossing "my airspace". Hell, I'd donate an acre to
| to the state at the corner just to let people cross. Fred
| Eshelman has a large fraction of a billion dollars at his
| disposal and has given away over $100 million dollars to UNC,
| just chalk this up as a donation and walk away.
 
  | Zak wrote:
  | The fact that you don't see the ability to buy land adjacent to
  | public land and charge people money for access to the public
  | land may be part of why you're not a rich person.
 
  | devoutsalsa wrote:
  | You could make it an experience. Pay to have an ornery rancher
  | catch you & lock you up in an old timey jail with the iron
  | bars. Have them locked up with a cattle rustler whose brother
  | rips the window off the prison wall with a horse, then escape
  | to go rob a train. The possibilities are endless.
 
| [deleted]
 
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-06-01 23:00 UTC)