[HN Gopher] People who use Notion to plan their whole lives
___________________________________________________________________
 
People who use Notion to plan their whole lives
 
Author : FinnKuhn
Score  : 265 points
Date   : 2023-04-25 10:15 UTC (12 hours ago)
 
web link (www.technologyreview.com)
w3m dump (www.technologyreview.com)
 
| capitanazo77 wrote:
| I just love simplicity in markdown files plus linux tools.
| 
| And for sync: obsidian.
| 
| And that's it. It's just perfect.
 
| i5heu wrote:
| I just use Git and Markdown
| 
| You know planing your life on some ones else software and
| hardware is a bad idea.
 
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| As of recently, I use telegram for any of that stuff. For
| example, we setup a "ToDo" private channel where me and my
| partner edit a text message that contains all the todo items. I
| have another private channel for myself to keep photos, notes
| etc. One can send messages scheduled in the future, this serves
| for reminders. A few news channels, including HN, an RSS bot, and
| I need nothing more.
 
| syngrog66 wrote:
| yet another thing well-solved by plain text files, and vim
 
| mouse_ wrote:
| https://files.catbox.moe/lrism9.png
| 
| wtf
 
| Aulig wrote:
| I like Notion but it's so horribly buggy. Just basic operations
| like deleting text using backspace or copy pasting break often
| and you end up deleting the wrong stuff or pasting at the wrong
| position.
 
| Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote:
| This just seems like so much work. The obsessive tracking of ever
| little thing. Does anyone really use this data in any meaningful
| way other that just admire its detail? What happens if you miss
| period, does this cause anxiety?
 
  | syntheweave wrote:
  | It's contextually bounded, I think. You can't be the librarian
  | of your whole life, but you can parcel out some things that
  | warrant discrete records(e.g. finances).
  | 
  | I do think it's pointless to put all of it in a computer. Some
  | things do better with a whiteboard(or an electronic version of
  | such like Boogie Board) or a paper journal. The computer is for
  | if you genuinely want to edit, rearrange, and structure the
  | data. It constantly tempts you to do so.
 
  | theFletch wrote:
  | I somewhat envy people who can meticulously plan like this.
  | When I try to do something like this I love talking about the
  | planning and researching, but putting it all together into a
  | detailed plan stresses me because I don't even know where to
  | start. It starts to make it feel like work. Then there's
  | another side of me that loves spontaneous adventure and just
  | going with the flow. If anyone has any tips to find a happy
  | medium, I'm all ears.
 
    | 331c8c71 wrote:
    | No plan of operations reaches with any certainty beyond the
    | first encounter with the enemy's main force reality.
 
  | drowsspa wrote:
  | Yeah, I have so little energy and motivation to do stuff. I
  | need to spend the little I have actually doing stuff rather
  | than planning to do stuff
 
  | PascLeRasc wrote:
  | I just got home yesterday from a 2 week vacation. I was feeling
  | especially relaxed during the trip, much more than usual. I
  | thought this was due to how good I had gotten at thought
  | exercises and managing anxiety, and I didn't want to forget
  | what I was doing that led to this so I bought a notebook. After
  | I started writing I lost the sense of detachment that was so
  | pleasant and couldn't get it back the rest of the trip.
 
  | 12907835202 wrote:
  | I've long dreamed of tracking every little thing. I don't know
  | why but tracking everything I do, what I eat or drink or wear,
  | how many hours I watch TV or sit on Reddit, how often I
  | urinate, my work life balance, literally everything, the of
  | having it all is exciting to me.
  | 
  | Beyond the thrill of acquiring and holding it, it would no
  | doubt be more useful than simply admiring it. Compare it to say
  | a sports trophy, that's something you simply admire although of
  | course you have the memories of the journey to win it as well.
  | 
  | Data and tracking on the other hand feels practical and usable
  | in the present and the future, as well as something to look
  | back on or "admire".
  | 
  | Would you think less of people who put the hours into winning a
  | sports trophy or writing a book (that they presumably never
  | read or use themselves)?
 
    | waprin wrote:
    | This is a passion of mine as well , and is called "life
    | logging" or "the quantified life".
    | 
    | I have a long term passion project called Navigoals
    | (Navigoals.com) built around the concept. It's like a habit
    | tracker but I organize all my habits/actions into a massive
    | DAG so if I track something at a low level it also bubbles up
    | to a high level goal. I can track instances of things or
    | durations of things (time tracking).
    | 
    | I also have an unpublished iOS version with Apple Watch
    | support, using the Watch is quicker to track stuff.
    | 
    | I realize to many this sounds insane but PLEASE email me
    | waprin@gmail.com if you're down to watch a demo over video
    | chat.
    | 
    | As far as the people who think I'm crazy, here's why I'm
    | passionate about this project. I really had trouble focusing
    | my whole life so as an adult I bit the bullet and got ADHD
    | meds. Those helped a LOT at the immediate problem of focusing
    | but literally made me crazy, very crazy, almost ruined my
    | life. During recovery I decided I would meditate 5 minutes
    | every day and journal one paragraph every day, which I used a
    | habit tracker for. This was a key part of my recovery. That
    | got me thinking - if a little tracking saved my life, what
    | can a lot of tracking do? I also needed to better manage my
    | time and goals without the usage of any medication.
    | 
    | People will say the data is pointless if you just admire it,
    | not the case. I noticed in weight loss subs , people strongly
    | advocate starting with food tracking. Just the act of forcing
    | honesty with yourself about what you're eating will change
    | your relationship with food. In a completely different
    | domain, the most important step to playing pro or semi-pro
    | poker is diligently tracking all results. Same reason -
    | forces honesty. And also in both cases, surfaces trends (e.g.
    | I eat or play poorly certain times of day).
    | 
    | I track over 200 of my actions every day and I strive for my
    | apps to make it quick to do. However it's important to
    | understand this does not turn me into a robot. My brain is so
    | naturally all over the place , I wander and do random things
    | so much, that just forcing myself to use apps to have _some_
    | structure and discipline puts me in the balance of a rigid
    | life and an improvised one.
    | 
    | I am realizing I'm in the minority, most people I demo my
    | apps to say, "that seems cool...for a certain type of
    | person." So, open to connecting with certain types of people.
 
    | [deleted]
 
    | davidmurdoch wrote:
    | Do you track how long it takes you to track things?
 
      | senectus1 wrote:
      | this is the point i fail... normally before i start.
      | 
      | I think about all the things i'll track, then realise just
      | how disruptive and time consuming that will be and give up.
 
    | aszantu wrote:
    | have you ever found a relationship between mood and what you
    | eat in a 5 day window?
 
  | koliber wrote:
  | It can be a lot of work. It can be a trap. But I don't think
  | Notion is the problem.
  | 
  | I will share some personal experience on this journey.
  | 
  | I like to be organized where I need to. I worked up a TODO list
  | habit and a note taking habit over time. At first it was pen
  | and paper. Then plain text notes. Then Evernote. And now it's
  | Notion.
  | 
  | Regardless of the tool, there were times when I overdid it. I
  | became too meticulous. The TODO list, instead of keeping me
  | organized and my mind free, became the source of my work and
  | worry.
  | 
  | I iterated over time, and have built up a system that works for
  | me. Whenever I feel that something becomes too heavy, I trim
  | it. Notion is nice because it allows me to be flexible. It's
  | more like a notebook with superpowers than Jira and Asana.
  | 
  | If you're obsessive and don't catch yourself, Notion can become
  | the source of troubles. But so can cataloging your CD
  | collection.
  | 
  | I recently shared my TODO list workflow with someone. I have a
  | daily and weekly template and they're quite involved. The
  | person was surprised asked me if I ever get stressed if I don't
  | do it all. Not at all, I said. What I don't do gets thrown away
  | and I start over tomorrow. It keeps me structured and
  | organized, but I am not its slave.
  | 
  | It's not how involved your system is. It's how much it works
  | for you, vs working against you.
 
  | malfist wrote:
  | I've tracked things like food intake for years at a time when
  | loosing weight. I also tracked every dollar spent manually for
  | 3 or 4 years.
  | 
  | Both times I did that they were extremely helpful to achieve my
  | goals. Too much of what we do is on autopilot. Noticing what
  | you're doing is a helpful way to course correct before you're
  | 10k over budget or 5 pounds heavier.
  | 
  | You have to do it in a healthy manner though, you can't obsess
  | about tracking. Be gentle with yourself and know you'll make
  | mistakes, both in tracking and what you're doing.
 
  | csw-001 wrote:
  | I find tracking things is a helpful (and relatively healthy)
  | way to manage anxiety. It's a total time vampire - but once
  | I've made my lists of todos/sheets/Roam/Notion/BuJo/whatever
  | and convinced myself I'm organized and in control, then I can
  | get real work done free of nagging concern I'm missing
  | something. I try to find a healthy balance, and my level of
  | tracking varies with my mental health and stress. I've noticed
  | that if I'm tracking nothing, things are bad. Likewise, if I'm
  | tracking EVERYTHING, I'm spiraling and things are bad.
 
  | iamacyborg wrote:
  | Slightly different context, but similar enough.
  | 
  | I wear a Garmin sportswatch so keep an eye on the subreddit. If
  | you go there you'll see daily threads about arbitrary metrics
  | like "sleep score", "body battery", hrv and vo2 max. People
  | _obsess_ over the numbers without really thinking to take a
  | step back and thinking about how accurate the data is and
  | whether or not it's actually meaningful in any real terms.
  | 
  | Definitely a lot of folks out there becoming slaves to this
  | sort of thing.
 
| throwawayjs wrote:
| I personally just use my calendar + Notes app + reminder app on
| my iPhone and that's been more than enough for me.
 
| hobo_mark wrote:
| > Joshua Bergen is a very productive person.
| 
| But is he? I mean his linkedin is, and I mean this with no malice
| whatsoever, quite average compared to the effort that goes into
| maintaining such a system?
 
  | blantonl wrote:
  | You judge people's productivity based on their LinkedIn?
  | 
  | This might be peak /r/LinkedInLunatics
 
    | [deleted]
 
| azubinski wrote:
| "Joshua Bergen is a very productive person. His secret is the
| workspace app Notion..."
| 
| sancta simplicitas
 
  | cynicalsecurity wrote:
  | Just marketing.
 
| protortyp wrote:
| To me, Obsidian really became the killer app overall. I used
| Notion and Foam before and while the interface there is much more
| beautiful, I like having my files locally (synced via Syncthing)
| and being able to write my own plugins easily. The existing
| plugin ecosystem with instances like Dataview or Templater makes
| Obsidian such a great solution for personal and work planning,
| and as a knowledge base.
| 
| The only thing that's really missing is a collaborative version
| of Obsidian to be able to work in teams. I found craft.do that
| has a very similar feel, but it's quite pricey and, of course,
| you can't self-host.
 
  | charles_f wrote:
  | Can't you just use a file share as your common vault for the
  | team to use?
 
    | bad_username wrote:
    | It inevitably gets ugly when notes are edited by a few people
    | simultaneously. Unless there is specific logic for automatic
    | conflict resolution or concurrent editing, it devolves into
    | chaos. File sharing tools typically do not have that, besides
    | creating endless "conflict files" that require manual
    | merging. The friction is just too high.
 
  | whats_a_quasar wrote:
  | Plug for a friend who is building this exact thing - a tool
  | that makes Obsidian collaborative, and also allows syncing
  | between Obsidian / Roam / Notion
  | 
  | https://samepage.network/
 
  | uptownfunk wrote:
  | It looks good. Couple questions:
  | 
  | 1/ how do you support hierarchical organization. The links let
  | you show relationships but how do you get to a hierarchical
  | representation
  | 
  | 2/ at some point this knowledge graph must become large and
  | unwieldy, how do you manage that?
 
    | protortyp wrote:
    | I primarily use folders and the dataview plugin [1] for 1).
    | E.g. when I am managing a course, I have a structure like so:
    | 
    | https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mbcuu2pyy7eb3o/folder-
    | structure.p...
    | 
    | I usually have a top-level note for a course, here the
    | "Computational Surgineering.md". In there, I use the dataview
    | plugin to simply create a dynamic table of all entries in the
    | meetings subfolder:
    | 
    | https://www.dropbox.com/s/wk8jjldlohg6bf3/dataview.png?dl=0
    | 
    | Another option I use is nested tags[2], like #cs/meeting for
    | the above use-case.
    | 
    | As for 2) I don't really use the global graph that much. It
    | looks quite cool, but I primarily just look at a local graph
    | with a maximum depth of 2-3 to quickly hop around.
    | 
    | [1] https://github.com/blacksmithgu/obsidian-dataview
    | 
    | [2] https://help.obsidian.md/Editing+and+formatting/Tags
    | 
    | Edit: Formatting is horrible on HN. I posted screenshots
    | instead.
 
| ralfd wrote:
| ... His secret is the workspace app Notion...
| 
| ... the reason Notion has such a devoted fan base is its
| flexibility...
| 
| ... Notion's most devoted fans say they're unlikely to jump ship
| to any other promising platforms anytime soon...
| 
| Is Notion so good, or is this product placement PR?
| 
| See: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
 
  | mrkwse wrote:
  | I'm someone who has used and paid for Notion for several years
  | at this point.
  | 
  | What I would say is that it's very versatile. It has almost
  | Atlassian Jira levels of features (and arguably of bloat), and
  | it's possible to reasonably organise a lot of
  | thoughts/knowledge/tasks in a wide range of ways.
  | 
  | I think the reason why it's so popular and oft lauded is
  | because the range of capability allows people to really
  | engineer workflows and processes that work for them and that
  | without the prompts of the examples that Notion and its
  | community provide they may not otherwise arrive at.
  | 
  | So for me I'd probably say that the product itself is fairly
  | good. It's far from flawless (e.g., it uses Electron), but does
  | a solid job of a wide range of things. The killer
  | differentiator against its competitors, however, is the library
  | of templates and example projects - this initially was produced
  | by Notion itself but then the community really grew, shared its
  | own interpretations, and _productivity content creators_ really
  | latched onto it as a good conduit for communicating workflows,
  | processes, and systems for working/getting tasks done.
 
    | yawnxyz wrote:
    | Notion's definitely seen a lot of bloat in the last few
    | years. I used it since the "2.0 relaunch" and it's gone kind
    | of downhill after each release. Stuff that used to work well
    | don't work as well or fast anymore.
    | 
    | Still better than anything else on the market though.
    | 
    | Apple Notes is great for my own stuff -- but good luck trying
    | to get multiple collaborators to use it.
 
    | fogoflove wrote:
    | Notion is a good product, imo. But it's not unique -- there
    | are other products like it out there, most notably Microsoft
    | Loop, which is a clone.
 
      | eropple wrote:
      | Loop seems a little more like Coda to me than Notion.
      | Similar space, but not a similar "outlook on life".
 
  | PurpleRamen wrote:
  | It is that good, but more specifically, it has a very specific
  | and innovative concept. There is not much competion yet, even
  | though some have finally emerged in the last years. But with
  | tools like this, it's also so specific in its ways and
  | features, that it's hard to switch because of your habits.
  | Think of it like vim, and how hard people seek for similar
  | modal interaction in all other tools they use.
 
  | jstummbillig wrote:
  | Notion is very, very good, and to me that became most apparent,
  | when I tried to find an alternative, because designing the more
  | serious parts of my life _for_ life around a proprietary piece
  | of SaaS seems ludicrous for too many reasons.
 
| jstop107 wrote:
| That's an advertisement
 
| fastball wrote:
| Shameless plug, but if anyone here enjoys Notion but finds it a
| bit overwhelming for managing their life, we designed
| Supernotes[1] to be a bit more settled / less trying to be "the
| everything app". We just released a new version yesterday that
| includes some fun features like "view depth" which might appeal
| to HNers. It's also markdown based, so less lock-in to a
| proprietary JSON format than Notion (though still not OSS -
| recommend Logseq if that's what you're looking for).
| 
| [1] https://supernotes.app/changelog/
 
| dtihanyi wrote:
| I found Notion frustrating to use across the different teams I
| manage because they really want you to do things 'one way'. The
| endless customization tutorials end up being really surface level
| once you try them out.
| 
| I use Taskade now https://www.taskade.com/
 
  | yz_coding wrote:
  | Taskade is easier to use and faster. Notion looks great but I
  | always felt it needs some cognitive load to even get started.
 
| lemiffe wrote:
| Absolutely love Notion for the aspects mentioned in the article;
| I love how I can cluster everything together (work, life, etc.)
| 
| From short term planning (templates for my week which I copy
| every Sunday to start a fresh week - these templates are a 7 day
| todo list (in columns) with a link to my main calendar, project
| 'kanban' boards, and a linked "general todo" list for things that
| don't fit in the week and keep dragging on)
| 
| After being addicted to scheduling everything in a calendar (for
| about 5-6 years), and having to drag items I didn't complete to
| the next day every single day, working with templates (and linked
| lists / embedded sections) in Notion is really a game changer.
| I've tried many other to-do tools (like Wunderlist which I loved
| before it came Microsoft To-Do, which I still gave a chance but
| had too many bugs).
| 
| Notion is just a game changer plain and simple, I hope they never
| break it, this is the only tool I have come to love and trust to
| keep my entire life in.
 
  | _fat_santa wrote:
  | I'm actually starting to do this but with Obsidian. I love
  | notion but one of my issues with it (and this is purely on
  | principle) is that you don't "own" your data. This got me
  | thinking, what would happen to my data in 5-10-15 or 20 years
  | down the road? My solution to this is to have a bunch of
  | markdown files in a git repository and use obsidian to manage
  | it. I assume that in the next 5 years something better than
  | Obsidian will come out though the idea is that is really
  | doesn't matter in the end because the data stays the same.
  | 
  | /end soapbox.
 
    | 015a wrote:
    | I've extensively used both. The problem I have concerns this
    | part:
    | 
    | > I assume that in the next 5 years something better than
    | Obsidian will come out though the idea is that is really
    | doesn't matter in the end because the data stays the same.
    | 
    | Something better already is out, and the data has already
    | changed. A ton of the power of Notion is in the structured
    | formatting of note metadata; Notion calls them Databases.
    | This is the core of a lot of the produtivity-hacking snake-
    | oil that these YouTube videos sell, but there _is_ something
    | to it. Markdown doesn 't have a correlate. Nothing even
    | close. You physically cannot represent in markdown what is
    | possible in some of these Notion documents.
 
      | lemiffe wrote:
      | Indeed, as long as we can export data I wouldn't mind too
      | much. Worst case you can write your own tool to represent
      | the data in a visual format you desire. I think the
      | columnar structure of Notion (which collapses on mobile) is
      | quite neat.
      | 
      | The only thing I'm scared of is I've started writing a book
      | (in Notion), and it would be a shame if something happens
      | to it due to unrecoverable data loss...
 
  | thiago_fm wrote:
  | Basically from what you've written, you are still addicted to
  | scheduling everything, but now you do it in notion.
  | 
  | If you need to constantly drag items you didn't complete to the
  | next day, it means you are either a professional
  | procrastinator, which TODO lists just make it worse, or you are
  | over committing and need to either find a way to delegate, or
  | just don't do it.
  | 
  | I bet that if you maintain literally 1 file with TODOS and
  | remove those lines as you complete it and use a
  | Calendar(preferably, only for work), you'll do just fine.
  | 
  | All that energy wasted planning, you can use it for action.
 
    | MisterBastahrd wrote:
    | Or maybe it's the best way for this person to stay on track.
    | You seem awfully judgmental over a relatively basic strategy
    | to complete tasks. Have you ever considered that some people
    | do things because it's the best way for THEM to accomplish
    | tasks?
    | 
    | I've got ADHD. I either (a) complete the task immediately,
    | (b) have anxiety over the task and procrastinate, (c)
    | completely forget about the task altogether until its
    | important. I don't create lists for fun. I create them
    | because I accomplish things faster when I have a list of
    | things to knock out.
    | 
    | Virtually everyone who has ever gone through something like
    | this has already DONE what you described, and it didn't meet
    | their needs. If you've got time to waste on HN, then you're
    | clearly not as hyper-efficient as you like to think you are.
 
| thiago_fm wrote:
| Why use this to plan your life?
| 
| Just use a Calendar... and write somewhere what you need to do.
| Or hell, just use your brain, if you can't keep what is important
| in your head, it probably means it isn't important at all.
| 
| Your life isn't complex like managing multiple workstreams and
| projects for a whole organisation of thousands of people, it's
| supposed to be simple. If you have too many things to keep track
| of, you are doing something wrong.
| 
| People like to overcomplicate their lives. Just do it!
 
  | azinman2 wrote:
  | Watch the YouTube video. Yes it's pretty intense with GTD, but
  | if you see the wide spectrum of her life in notion it's very
  | impressive. I don't think I'd ever do it, but I wish I was
  | organized enough to do so.
 
  | hammyhavoc wrote:
  | I have ADHD, and if I don't write it down, it isn't happening.
  | How that information is presented is a big deal.
  | 
  | If you do a basic litmus test of going to a sub-Reddit that
  | specializes in productivity, concepts like GTD, or software
  | like Obsidian, you'll quite frequently find people with ADHD,
  | and folks who suspect they have ADHD, but have no diagnosis, or
  | can't access appropriate medication where they live for one
  | reason or another.
  | 
  | Disclaimer: I don't use Notion. I didn't like it.
 
| imtemplain wrote:
| [dead]
 
| joseph_grobbles wrote:
| [dead]
 
| mabbo wrote:
| The software that's running my life right now is ToDoist.
| 
| I have daily chores, I need to remember to do at different times
| of the day. Other things are every 3 days. Others are on specific
| days. Others are every k weeks.
| 
| If I need to remember to do something, it goes on the list with a
| specific day and time I want to do it by. At the end of every day
| I review what's left and either do it or postpone it.
| 
| Cleaning a checklist works for me. Do what works for you.
 
  | czbond wrote:
  | I opened the comments to see if anyone mentioned ToDoist. I use
  | it and love it for personal use.
 
  | ZunarJ5 wrote:
  | Todoist and Obsidian for me. I linked them with extensions.
  | Obsidian is my notebook and Todoist keeps me on track. People
  | that go this deep into pkms aren't efficient workers. They can
  | be extremely helpful, but this sounds frankly unhealthy and
  | unhelpful.
 
  | darkteflon wrote:
  | I've been a paid Todoist user for years - probably 6 or 7 years
  | I would guess. I like almost everything about it but it drives
  | me crazy that they won't add blocking/blocked by flags and the
  | ability to assign a task to more than one project - both of
  | which, incidentally, Notion can do.
  | 
  | I'll keep using Todoist for personal stuff but for shared work
  | projects Notion works better for me. It feels like they just
  | fundamentally chose a great set of abstractions. I do wish
  | their mobile UX was better, though.
 
    | mabbo wrote:
    | I've quite liked their mobile UX actually! On Android, I have
    | an entire screen devoted to the widget. I swipe to the right,
    | read the list, add to it, check things off. I rarely open the
    | actual app.
 
      | darkteflon wrote:
      | Oh sorry, yes I like Todoist's mobile UX a lot - it's very
      | good. I meant that I wished Notion's mobile UX was better!
 
| [deleted]
 
| jrmg wrote:
| These systems always strike me as a failure of the file system
| and desktop metaphor.
| 
| _The computer_ was intended to be the system you stored documents
| in, with paths to link between them, and any number of
| applications to do any number of things with them. Extended
| attributes are available for metadata. There's not really any
| reason why things like Dropbox and iCloud couldn't extend this to
| the Internet.
| 
| But it somehow became too unwieldy to really work this way (for
| me, too - I'm not arguing that it's a good way to do things with
| the systems we really have). It's a shame.
 
  | swalling wrote:
  | It's true that the organizational model of the file system and
  | desktop metaphor _should_ be usable for this.
  | 
  | There's another huge gap though: documents in your local
  | machine don't have easy to use hypertext. Apple Notes app is
  | very nice, but neither it nor TextEdit nor Pages can do what a
  | Notion document can do. The OS needs a HyperCard to make it
  | adopt Web-native tools for thinking.
 
    | DerCed wrote:
    | Hence, Obsidian.md
 
      | whats_a_quasar wrote:
      | Yeah, to expand Obsidian is almost exactly what you're
      | describing. It's a wiki-like software that works entirely
      | on markdown and data on the file system. Has similar
      | functionality to Notion but feels more like an IDE
 
        | swalling wrote:
        | Gotcha. I think I never dug into it because normal people
        | generally don't want to write in Markdown. The effort in
        | doing that and manually managing cloud sync isn't worth
        | it. Apple needs to build it with WYSIWYG and have it work
        | out of the box with iCloud.
 
  | lmm wrote:
  | People have been trying to turn the file system into a database
  | for decades at this point. It was supposed to be the killer
  | feature of Windows Vista.
  | 
  | IME the filesystem is both too complex and too simple; it's
  | completely underspecified, has no memory model or semantics,
  | and all the advanced features like extended attributes are
  | unportable to the point of uselessness. There's literally one
  | filesystem metadata feature that actually works reasonably
  | reliably and it's the one most of HN hates: Windows three-
  | letter extensions to indicate file types.
  | 
  | It would be great to have a portable, standardised, database-
  | like layer - SQL isn't it either - but I think it would have to
  | be something ran as a userspace layer rather than built into
  | the filesystem.
 
| thefourthchime wrote:
| I have experimented with Notion and previously used Evernote.
| However, I simply require basic tools and a platform that
| functions rapidly and synchronizes across devices. Apple Notes
| fulfills these needs quite effectively for me.
| 
| Contrary to Evernote, which progressively slowed down and
| demanded increased payments, or Notion, which I anticipate may
| follow a similar path, I don't foresee Apple Notes becoming
| burdened and focused on revenue generation.
 
  | mandmandam wrote:
  | If only Apple Notes would just bring in drop down bullets.
  | 
  | I'm a little baffled that they still haven't - it would be such
  | a huge quality of life improvement for such a tiny effort.
 
| pbueckle wrote:
| I've been using Notion at my new workplace and was excited at
| first, but having used it now for many months I came to hate it.
| They constantly announce new features but are completely
| neglecting the basics:
| 
| - Copy and paste is completely broken. Good luck trying to paste
| a table.
| 
| - The drag & drop feature is equally annoying, it just never
| works and doesn't select the things you intend to select or drop
| them in the place where you want them to be.
| 
| - The basic table is very limited (e.g. no pictures/formatting
| inside cells, no ability to reorder/sort - vs a Google
| Docs/Sheets based table)
| 
| - It grinds to a halt in long docs and databases over 100 rows.
| Can't stress this enough.
| 
| - Timezone support is completely messed up (you can e.g. create a
| database with a time column and specify the timezone, but the
| calendar view will always map all events in the timezone you're
| in, making it useless because events are getting shifted to other
| days)
 
  | renjimen wrote:
  | Even trying to select text is a nightmare. Notion can't make up
  | its mind between selecting text or selecting the objects that
  | contains the text.
  | 
  | I wish there was a markdown mode with a live preview, then I
  | would never use the rest of the Notion interface.
 
  | bradgessler wrote:
  | Their native app wrappers also have issues.
  | 
  | - On macOS the "Sync dark/light mode with OS" settings
  | constantly get reset
  | 
  | - I'm frequently logged out (and have to log back in)
  | 
  | - No effort for basic integration has happened, which makes
  | drag & drop in and out of the app awkward, no sharing
  | extensions, etc.
  | 
  | If I'm being honest, I envy them for being in the position of
  | being able to completely ignore this stuff and still have a
  | product that people love. That said, it feels like an easy
  | thing to throw 1-2 people on with the task of, "make this
  | integrate deeper into the host operating system with Electron
  | basics"
 
  | softsound wrote:
  | I remember the days before tables, and I think it's come a long
  | way with lots of great features... That said, I don't see it as
  | a replacement for regular tools like Google sheets and docs
  | etc.
 
  | Slow_Hand wrote:
  | For me the thing that made me give up using Notion was the
  | "feel" of the basic text editing. There was a latency and
  | lagginess to the way it responded that made it so unsatisfying
  | and, at worst, irritating to use that I couldn't go on.
  | 
  | Typing this, it feels weird to give up because of such a subtle
  | thing, but there were probably a dozen more details lacking in
  | this way that eroded all of the goodwill won by the flashy
  | features.
  | 
  | In something as seemingly simple as a text editor it turns out
  | that if it's not built on a solid foundation of usability then
  | I very quickly sour on the rest of it.
  | 
  | Currently using Obsidian and am very pleased. I'm happy with
  | how "light" it feels.
 
  | corndoge wrote:
  | I use, love and evangelize Notion but yes, all of these are
  | valid criticism, and copy-pasting in particular is so busted.
 
  | atleastoptimal wrote:
  | Notion is a greatest common denominator of the general form on
  | how to make a successful company out of nothing really new or
  | groundbreaking.
  | 
  | It's no better than the alternatives, but invites a sort of
  | appetite for using it that keeps it afloat and to any company
  | mired in the complexity of their enterprise productivity
  | solutions, offers a simple, one-stop-shop to everything, even
  | if its promises are vacuous.
  | 
  | > Create an "ecosystem" generic enough to potentially offer
  | unlimited tacked on features and unlimited scope creep
  | 
  | > Make it very minimalist and user friendly so there's no
  | adoption cost
  | 
  | > Create the impression that there's some ideal harmony of
  | workflow available to any user who uses it the "right way".
  | Apple heavily leans into this in their marketing. If it doesn't
  | work for you then you must not be using it right
 
| idlephysicist wrote:
| Maybe I am the weird one but I use a diary / planner what ever
| you want to call it. I'll never get locked out of it, I don't
| have to pay a monthly fee. Personally I think that I have enough
| screen time as it is.
| 
| Ok yeah the search feature is somewhat lacking but from the
| sounds of it most of these organise your life SaaS products have
| the same issue.
| 
| Sure I could lose it but I'd argue that losing your access to
| Notion et al. is worse because you know where your data is but
| you're not allowed in.
 
  | syntheweave wrote:
  | A diary with sticky notes is an excellent feedback loop: Stick
  | in tasks, then write down what happened later.
 
  | crossroadsguy wrote:
  | There is nothing weird about it. I have been doing it, and many
  | others I personally know have done it since forever. It seems
  | for boarding school folks, at least around where I am from,
  | diary is really a companion right from the beginning; for me it
  | has been since really young. However I also happily use one or
  | two clean/simple note taking apps and it is on my phone at any
  | given time (paid or free; but strictly non-subscription).
 
    | idlephysicist wrote:
    | Yeah I've also had a similar experience with a school diary
    | or as we called them homework journals. Though no boarding
    | school experience.
    | 
    | I do also use the reminders app on the iPhone if I need a
    | reminder at a specific time.
 
  | sofixa wrote:
  | You don't have to use a SaaS, you can use a modern "note
  | taking"++ tool like Obsidian (not affiliated, just a huge fan)
  | or Logseq (FOSS). In both cases files are fully local, sync is
  | optional (for Obsidian there's a paid service or you can just
  | use Dropbox/GDrive/Git/etc.), and you get a ton of advanced
  | features like complex search, smart references, etc.
  | 
  | For instance I use Obsidian for meeting notes, and with the
  | help of a plugin I link all previous meeting notes on this
  | topic/customer and can at a glance see the history I have with
  | this subject. Furthermore, I also link the associated Jira
  | ticket and the Jira ticket history matching the labels, again
  | for history purposes. I also use the Excalidraw integration to
  | get diagrams that I can embed in my notes. There's also a
  | Kanban plugin, Map view plugin (e.g. if planning a trip), etc.
  | etc. The sky is the limit!
  | 
  | Overall, I'd strongly recommend.
 
    | idlephysicist wrote:
    | Nice, glad to hear that you have a useful and productive
    | workflow.
    | 
    | Yeah at work I use what ever tech what I'm told to use, but
    | paper is still an important part of my thought process.
 
| alhirzel wrote:
| I use ClickUp[1] in similar ways. I have three spaces: family,
| personal development, professional development. All of the side
| projects I have are under personal development, various work
| commitments (including e.g. rental house management) under
| professional, and family varies from "scoop the litter box
| Mon/Wed/Sat" all the way to 10 year goals. I have not (and may
| not) reach steady-state on the way it's organized, and I may end
| up splitting some of it off into a dead tree some day, but for
| now it's accessible, consistent and actionable.
| 
| [1] https://clickup.com/
| 
| I'm surprised I don't hear more about ClickUp on HN. Generous
| free tier, can share lists with other people, support for
| automations...
 
  | qot wrote:
  | I don't recommend ClickUp because of the amount of marketing
  | emails / spam they send you. Every minor version update gets an
  | email in your inbox.
  | 
  | Their "unsubscribe" link at the bottom of the emails also
  | doesn't work which is unacceptable.
 
| sockaddr wrote:
| This Notion spam is getting tiresome.
 
| have_faith wrote:
| I started doing this for a while but quickly switched to
| Obsidian. Obviously it doesn't have the same features but it
| serves the same purpose for me at least. The data format is much
| simpler and portable too, I just store the vault in iCloud and
| sync it to my phone.
 
  | qbasic_forever wrote:
  | I just wish obsidian was better at lists, especially on the
  | mobile client. It's really painful moving things around tab
  | levels, reordering items, etc. I can't even manage a grocery
  | list without it devolving into complete chaos and broken
  | markdown. There are extensions that help but extensions on
  | mobile are really bad (just an enormous toolbar to scroll
  | through, no real UI... the whole mobile app feels designed to
  | be used with a keyboard which defeats the point of mobile).
 
    | SamBam wrote:
    | Since Notion is just plain text files, it would be lovely if
    | someone could produce a better app for mobile that could work
    | with those files.
    | 
    | It could be a fraction of the features, like just text
    | editing and good lists, and you could always switch to
    | editing markdown if you needed to.
 
      | SamBam wrote:
      | s/notion/obsidian
 
    | Ruq wrote:
    | In my experience lists are great but for reordering which can
    | be awkward. Even there, there ought to be a plugin that makes
    | reordering easier.
    | 
    | Have you checked out the mobile toolbar? It makes
    | indent/unindenting list items easy.
 
      | qbasic_forever wrote:
      | Yeah the toolbar badly needs context awareness. If my
      | cursor is on a list item then show me the list actions
      | right there, not a global fixed list of things that never
      | changes and almost never has what I need at the right
      | moment.
 
  | anonzzzies wrote:
  | I similarly moved from Notion to Joplin. My data, my server
  | etc. For me the move was triggered by Notion being very slow,
  | but later on, with the amounts of data I had in Notion, I
  | started to worry about privacy etc as well.
 
    | doubleg72 wrote:
    | I am in the process of moving to obsidian from Joplin. I like
    | Joplin but the screen real estate is a bit much on smaller
    | screens.
 
  | geraltofrivia wrote:
  | Obsidian is great. My notetaking solutions went from
  | 
  | - raw text files
  | 
  | - raw markdown files
  | 
  | - + homemade server rendering the markdown live
  | 
  | - Obsidian
  | 
  | - Notion
  | 
  | I stick with Notion because it really is infinitely
  | configurable. I rarely use 99% of the plugins but I have, in
  | the past, used their API to populate the show the results of my
  | experiments straight from my Python code to a Notion Table.
  | Super convenient. I take regular (every six months or so) hard
  | exports that I save to disk in case the company goes belly up
  | tomorrow. I'm comfortable with it.
 
  | inferense wrote:
  | did the same but missed tasks and integrations so started
  | working on https://acreom.com during covid. It's dev centric
  | and data ownership focused, would love to get feedback.
 
| raybb wrote:
| I have been quite happy with Obsidian + Tasks.org (synced via
| nextcloud). I don't connect them in any way.
| 
| I used TickTick for several years and quite liked it (still
| recommend it) but at some point they started nerfing the free
| version and I became more concerned about privacy and
| supportively of open source so tried a few alternatives and found
| them to be great.
| 
| I mostly use Todo list to keep track of things I need to follow
| up on (like volunteer work) and homework.
| 
| Unfortunately, I still use Notion for a few things like Wikipedia
| page ideas because I simply don't like the way "databases" feel
| to edit in Obsidian with the available plugins.
| 
| Obsidian for me is mostly a daily journal plus a few pages that
| are like notes about cities I visited or my thoughts on the
| language learning apps I've experimented with.
 
| rho4 wrote:
| I use Trello to organize my life. At the moment I cannot imagine
| what kind of features an alternative would have to offer for me
| to consider switching.
 
  | jldugger wrote:
  | I use Trello for a lot of things. I'm not saying notion is this
  | thing, but customizing the dessign to the workflow works better
  | than One App To Rule Them All.
  | 
  | My go to example here is grocery lists. Most "productivity"
  | apps have a checklist feature, but thats super bare bones. I
  | used to use Cinnamon, but its been taken off the store (anylist
  | is a my current meager replacement). What made it _good_ was
  | that instead of "done/not done" state checklists offer was that
  | it modeled an inventory flow. Pantry -> Buy List -> Shopping
  | cart -> Pantry.
  | 
  | The shopping process is simple and repeatable. I start with the
  | Pantry list, which describes all the stuff I expect in a well-
  | stocked pantry, and step one is to confirm I have them.
  | Anything I don't have (or need more of) I move to the buy list.
  | Later, at the store, the Buy list is my guide to what goes in
  | the shopping cart.
  | 
  | This is very similar to the original intention of Kanban, but:
  | 
  | - the UI is much smoother than trello. Just swiping, no drag
  | and drop. And there's an undo button - the metadata is
  | customized to the process, and can decorate the UI with info.
  | Prices forecast your total at the checkout register, grouping
  | by aisle or location makes it easier to grab the right stuff
  | and confirm you've grabbed all the stuff in one go. - after a
  | period of inactivity all items in the cart move back to the
  | pantry automatically
  | 
  | Trello, at its core is designed for team project management,
  | with many tasks occurring in parallel. The UI is designed to
  | visualize the amount of work being done and where the
  | bottlenecks live. It's very good at this! It even lets you
  | design custom workflows to model the exact work being done. But
  | there's always going to be a tensions in place working against
  | it -- making apps that work for everything usually end up great
  | at nothing, and its product market fit seems to be agile
  | software development, so thats where its UI and feature set
  | lean towards.
  | 
  | So IDK if you switch as much as slowly add to the pile of apps.
 
  | thanatos519 wrote:
  | One thing I'm wishing for in Trello is the ability to add an
  | icon to my Android home screen pointing directly to a specific
  | checklist.
 
    | brycedriesenga wrote:
    | Hmm -- can you link directly to Trello lists/cards? Wondering
    | if you could leverage a Chrome link on the home screen if
    | that would then throw you over to Trello automatically? Not
    | sure.
 
      | mxuribe wrote:
      | You can def. link directly to a card (I've been doing that
      | for years)...but to a list, not sure about that one.
 
      | [deleted]
 
| cobertos wrote:
| I used to do this, until the slowness, downtime, no offline mode,
| and API throttling fucked me over. So I left the ecosystem.
| 
| Unfortunately I havent found anything comparable, though Typora
| mostly fills the void.
| 
| I'm working on my own version though now
 
| [deleted]
 
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Workflowy is what I have been using for almost a decade. I think
| the reason it works so well is because it is simple. Anti
| features are so powerful in an app like this otherwise you can
| spend all your time tweaking and coming up with the perfect
| system.
 
  | pbowyer wrote:
  | Have they added any way to have multiple root nodes? After
  | using Workflowy for a decade on and off my tree is cluttered
  | with notes and I want to start afresh but not lose them all.
  | Keeping 1500+ nodes hanging around also slows the app down.
 
  | nmca wrote:
  | Also my go-to. Very useful for travel, projects etc. Recursive
  | lists fit my brain well & the search is good enough!
 
  | mandmandam wrote:
  | I liked Workflowy a lot, but the idea of paying $60 a year for
  | drop down lists inspires a deep, deep revulsion.
  | 
  | I wouldn't even pay that for the full app to own for life.
 
    | ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
    | It's $49 annually. If you use it for everything, it is
    | totally worth it.
 
| lazymentors wrote:
| I honestly use taskade instead of notion. A better user interface
| and help from their team. https://www.taskade.com/
 
| dt3ft wrote:
| Isn't this entire article just marketing? Why mention specific
| app/saas provider?
 
  | prmoustache wrote:
  | I was about to say that. It is just a badly disguised paid ad.
 
    | connordoner wrote:
    | Is there any evidence that it's paid? I mean, it does strike
    | me as an ad, but I can't see anything factual to confirm that
    | it's paid.
 
| kylecazar wrote:
| I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't use anything to 'plan'
| my life besides a calendar.
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | arkitaip wrote:
  | You're probably way better off because of it. Most productivity
  | work is busy work and a failure to better manage anxiety and
  | stress.
 
| paczki wrote:
| Absolutely love Notion, but that time it went down for a while a
| few years ago was the last time I've used it. The fact they still
| don't have an offline version is baffling to me cause I'd love to
| throw money at them for the product but here we are.
| 
| Obsidian is my main alternative as it mostly does what I want and
| does it locally. Not affiliated, I just think it's an incredible
| tool and the extensions you can get can turn it into something
| else entirely. For example, Joshua Plunkett turned it into an
| incredible RPG manager: https://www.patreon.com/posts/67310539
 
| arthurofbabylon wrote:
| I built minimal.app as the antithesis of over-planning, over-
| documenting, over-organizing, and over-thinking. The feature that
| keeps the mind open is the Note Lifetime, whereby notes die when
| you don't engage with them [1].
| 
| This is in contrast to notion, evernote, et al where writers
| collect stuff and live in these information silos, trapped by the
| confines of their tools. Of course many (most?) thoughtful people
| can pull themselves out of these traps with discipline, but I
| prefer my tools devoid of these slippery slopes that make
| discipline a necessity [2].
| 
| I use Minimal to "plan my life" just like the characters in this
| story, except every time I open the app it feels like an empty
| slate, a blank canvas, so new projects can take new directions
| and new mindsets are less constrained by prior mindsets. As the
| designer and builder, my goal is to capture the best of a paper
| notebook and the best of software. I know I'm not executing
| perfectly, but this is a fun and exciting guiding principle.
| 
| [1] - Also the interface is just clean with features hidden away
| until they are needed.
| 
| [2] - Just like a well-architected structure makes the resident
| by default open-minded, comfortable, and joyous, our tools
| similarly have a "gravity" or default effect on the user. It's
| very important to observe these patterns.
| 
| [Final aside] - Anyone who wants to can get a free membership and
| unlimited access tk premium features by joining the beta program
| - do it at minimal.app/#beta if you want to check Minimal out.
 
  | apozem wrote:
  | > notes die when you don't engage with them
  | 
  | That is an interesting idea, but not something I would ever
  | want in a notes app. A note may be important but never opened.
  | 
  | For example, I have a note in Craft with my bike serial number
  | and a picture of me standing next to it. If my bike is ever
  | stolen and recovered, this note is proof of ownership. I have
  | not opened this note since creating it, because my bike has not
  | been stolen, but I would obviously hate to lose it.
 
    | ayewo wrote:
    | That's an interesting use case.
    | 
    | Why not just include a photo of the receipt as proof of
    | ownership?
 
      | dymk wrote:
      | Why not just keep a searchable note of it in a notes app?
 
      | OJFord wrote:
      | Why would you want to repeatedly 'interact' with that any
      | more?
 
      | dvzk wrote:
      | For one thing, it's common for enthusiasts to replace stock
      | components. A serial number stamped onto the frame isn't
      | useful all the time, especially if the frame itself is
      | secondhand. If someone takes your >$2,000 carbon wheelset
      | then you're SOL, likely no matter what.
 
      | TurkishPoptart wrote:
      | Because it's hard to match a visual depiction of the bike
      | and owner to a printed receipt.
 
    | SkyMarshal wrote:
    | The minimal.app idea would make more sense for a ToDo list
    | app than a note app, I think. ToDo items that aren't either
    | checked off or interacted with after a time are likely not
    | either urgent or important and can be auto-deleted.
 
    | bee_rider wrote:
    | Looking at the site, I guess the dead notes might just be
    | hidden in a "delete" folder instead of actually gone forever,
    | which seems like a reasonable compromise.
 
    | trevwilson wrote:
    | The "note lifetime" image on their page mentions pinning
    | notes to keep them from being deleted, but if that keeps it
    | persistently at the top of the list it's probably not what
    | you'd want either.
 
    | drewrv wrote:
    | A little off topic, but you should check out bikeindex.org
 
  | fudged71 wrote:
  | Rather than a note dying, I wonder if notes could decay into
  | smaller and smaller summaries.
 
    | trenchgun wrote:
    | That could be a really nice feature too
 
  | ErikHuisman wrote:
  | Self cleansing notes. That is a great idea.
 
  | mywacaday wrote:
  | I presume you were scratching your own itch but maybe you can
  | answer a question for me, why are the majority of productivity
  | apps on here only available on IOS?
 
    | patatino wrote:
    | iOS user spend more money
 
  | waynesonfire wrote:
  | save your notes so you can train chatgpt on them.
 
  | syntheticnature wrote:
  | Dying notes are a fascinating thought, and relate to some of
  | the cruft aspects I've seen with any sort of task-tracking.
  | 
  | That said, in my usual note-taking app, I have things like
  | recipes I might make once in a blue moon, and I'd be very
  | annoyed if I lost my late grandma's lasagna recipe.
 
    | courgette wrote:
    | I use the built in note from apple in my phone. The one on
    | top are the most recently touched. It works for me.
    | 
    | The bottom is stuff from years ago. It can be nice to revisit
 
    | bee_rider wrote:
    | Based on the site, it looks like it moves them to a "deleted
    | notes" folder rather than actually completely destroying
    | them.
    | 
    | I'm not sure if it is locally hosted or a cloud thing. If it
    | is a cloud thing, having noted eventually degrade might be a
    | nice reminder that like any cloud thing it could just up and
    | vanish at some point. That recipe is probably due for long
    | term storage.
 
  | slaven wrote:
  | I love this! I'm starting to feel this is a solution to a lot
  | of info-overload stress in our lives. I'm making an iOS app
  | with the same slant: every day has its own list, so you start
  | fresh every day, or you can add to your tomorrow's list at
  | night so you start the day prepared. I also added a bullet-
  | journal-like view for the month and it all adds up to a lot
  | less stress than what I've been doing before (the testflight is
  | at https://testflight.apple.com/join/t5ZpRV2l )
 
  | throwaway675309 wrote:
  | oof, I feel like this is replicating the worst parts of having
  | a fallible human memory.
 
  | electrondood wrote:
  | I just use Sublime and a notes folder containing text files
  | groups in folders by topic. The search function is excellent,
  | and I don't need anything more.
 
| quacked wrote:
| I once read a tweet that said "the most effective people I know
| just work on the most important thing, and they get way more done
| than the people I know who obsessively manage their time". Oddly
| enough, when I thought about it, I realized I could pretty easily
| think of the most important thing at any given time.
| 
| I like to stay organized. For random thoughts, brainstorms,
| arbitrary URLs or bits of information, I use Google Keep and
| eventually migrate them into OneNote for more permanence. For
| files, I use an Unsorted folder in OneDrive, and then eventually
| migrate them into my structured OneDrive for permanence.
| Organizing and migrating all this built-up information becomes a
| leisurely meditation on category theory. It's a great way to
| procrastinate productively.
| 
| When I actually want to be productive, I entirely ignore my
| information ecosystem, ask myself "what important thing am I
| avoiding?" and then work on that.
 
| snissn wrote:
| yesterday i started using gpt4 as a todo list manager and it's
| pretty amazing. I can brain dump thoughts and tasks into it and
| it automatically prioritizes things and will let me be
| conversational around my tasks... i used a super basic prompt
| that could be improved, but so far it's really nice:
| 
| Hi! you are my secretary and todolist manager! I will generally
| ask you to add things to my todo list, organize the todo list by
| time and topic and subject, ask you to remind me of my list and
| also ask you to help priotiize things, soudn good?
 
  | bckr wrote:
  | Now imagine it has access to unlimited indexable storage as
  | well as your messaging, email, browser...
 
    | Gbox4 wrote:
    | There's some people working on something like that:
    | https://klu.so (not affiliated, just thought it was cool)
 
| zepolen wrote:
| This entire article reads like an advertisement written by chat
| gpt.
 
| menacingly wrote:
| Even more than I love Notion, I love how effective the PR I just
| read was
 
| jwie wrote:
| Turning your life into a checklist is missing the point.
 
  | koliber wrote:
  | Agreed.
  | 
  | Counterpoint: Turning the important things into a checklist so
  | you don't forget about them, and get them done quickly frees up
  | time to live your life.
 
| karles wrote:
| As a Notion-user, this just seems excessive to me.
| 
| I love Notion because it gives me the ability to make
| "lightweight" notes/pads fast. I've since learned to utilize the
| linked database features which makes it easier to organize notes,
| tasks and projects.
| 
| At some point however, it feels like it just becomes busy-work to
| make new boxes to check, new links, relations and what-not.
| 
| To me the beauty is in the simplicity, cross-platform
| capabilities and relative ease with which I can create and access
| simple notes fast.
| 
| EDIT: I forgot templates. I use 2 or 3 templates for notes and
| "new projects". I never use more than 5 columns for my
| projects/notes either. And I don't have any "dashboards" besides
| my task-list (that I can sort as kanban with four status-
| indicators - basic stuff).
 
  | spondylosaurus wrote:
  | Same and same. My most effective Motion pages are the big ugly
  | bullet point lists to quickly jot down to-do tasks or grocery
  | lists or writing ideas or albums I want to listen to; what
  | makes it all work is the ability to offload my brain into an
  | external source as quickly as possible (and retrieve it later
  | when I need it).
  | 
  | Some of these really fancy setups look nice, but they strike me
  | as adding too much friction to the whole process.
 
    | spondylosaurus wrote:
    | Just realized I meant to say *Notion and not Motion... note
    | to self, don't leave HN comments when you're sitting up at
    | 4AM with acid reflux :P
 
  | winstonprivacy wrote:
  | My secret weapon is a "to do" list in notepad.
  | 
  | One list which has everything. No apps, no workflow, no SaaS
  | fees. Works better than anything else I've tried.
 
    | anongraddebt wrote:
    | Same here for todos (just with pen and paper).
    | 
    | I don't see why I'd need an admin dashboard and a DBMS to
    | effectively prioritize what I need to accomplish in 16 hours.
 
    | tofuahdude wrote:
    | Same, except that I've added Obsidian as a UI on top of it.
    | Check in markdown, have decent visual on top.
 
    | freedomben wrote:
    | Same, except s/notepad/vim. One big file. Easy to keep in
    | version control (I keep it in my dot files repo), easy to
    | search/grep, Currently has 10 years worth of stuff (well over
    | 10,000 lines) but is still instantaneous to open and search.
    | I've recently started trying out Logseq and there's a chance
    | I may actually switch, but the single-text-file approach has
    | served me very well for a long time.
 
      | [deleted]
 
      | cyberpunk wrote:
      | I was the same, I've been on logseq for a while and I'm
      | pretty much a convert. Syntax highlighting, embed images,
      | todo/now/done -- all a bit more effortless.
      | 
      | And it all went into the same git repo as my previous vim
      | based .plan ;)
      | 
      | I just wish it had a decent vi mode!
 
        | cldwalker wrote:
        | Check out https://github.com/vipzhicheng/logseq-plugin-
        | vim-shortcuts
 
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| In the past few months my family has moved to Basecamp and it's
| pretty awesome.
| 
| Sharing a schedule and having it sync to everyone's calendar app
| is handy. Also being able to assign tasks and attach metadata is
| great.
| 
| The other day I was assigned a task that required getting
| something from the hardware store. Opened up the task and there
| were photos and measurements attached.
| 
| Before Basecamp we used multiple communication channels for this.
| 
| Also, it seems that our data is open enough for me. I can export
| Basecamp to disk if I ever want to migrate out.
 
| figassis wrote:
| I think after using so many of these organization apps, I used
| plaintext note taking apps, sublime text, trello, more structured
| note taking apps (evernote, Agenda for Mac, etc), Todo apps (so
| many of them, incl pomodoro style), then went back to trello and
| I think I'm staying there.
 
  | bayindirh wrote:
  | Everybody is different, and Trello is a great application (I
  | use it for longer-term planning with my partner), but after
  | starting to use Pagico, I'm completely sold. Being able to plan
  | things as projects, and putting them to a unified or
  | independent gantt charts is a great way to visualize daily and
  | long term load.
 
    | darkteflon wrote:
    | Pagico looks interesting, would you mind saying a few more
    | words on what you like about it?
 
      | bayindirh wrote:
      | Of course.
      | 
      | First of all, Pagico is really cross platform. It has
      | clients for macOS, Linux and Windows, plus iOS (I use it on
      | macOS, iOS and Linux). It allows me to group the tasks
      | either in a free floating Inbox, or in their respective
      | projects.
      | 
      | I can combine all these projects' tasks in a single view,
      | or see them in their independent contexts. This allows me
      | to see my whole workload (private + professional) and plan
      | my life accordingly, even for future.
      | 
      | Every project can have its lists, notes, files and
      | schedule. This allows me to take small notes and track my
      | projects and carry these notes everywhere. Hence, I don't
      | lose my mental state about a project. It also tracks
      | project progress and your working patterns, like which days
      | you're more active on the projects by analyzing your
      | activity on said project.
      | 
      | Tasks can be added pretty quickly while planning, even with
      | some NLP support. "Do this. Next tuesday" automatically
      | scheduled, and the date string is automatically stripped.
      | NLP is done locally, on the app.
      | 
      | You can export these notes as HTML pages if you want, but I
      | generally move notes to Evernote or the prioject's public
      | Wiki, if I chose to close the project, but that's not a
      | given. Sometimes I just leave them in.
      | 
      | Pagico provides a sync capability through its servers, yet
      | you don't have to use it. It can work nicely over Dropbox
      | for example, but mobile clients won't be able to sync with
      | it.
      | 
      | The application is designed very neatly. Actually, it's
      | just a web view with a dedicated/specialized PHP server
      | running as a different process. It's much more lighter than
      | Electron, yet it works very well.
      | 
      | The developer is also very responsive to bug reports and
      | feedback. They are developing the thing for a very long
      | time and they know what they're doing.
      | 
      | The app is not perfect, of course, but it works very well
      | for what it does. I bought it during pandemic, and it's now
      | my de-facto planning tool.
      | 
      | However, I still use Trello for even-longer term planning
      | and Evernote for "eternal" documents. All three works
      | pretty well for me. I spend maybe ~10 minutes every night
      | to plan for the next day, and I'm happy.
      | 
      | I also want to note that I don't use many of the
      | collaboration features of the app, and it has much more
      | features than I actively use.
 
| Invictus0 wrote:
| I don't use any checklist or notebook or anything. I just know
| what I need to do and do it.
 
  | maxbaines wrote:
  | Yes this is what I do also - But reading this thread is perhaps
  | making me wonder if this is an unusual approach? To me its very
  | normal to know what I need to do, and very very rarely do I
  | miss something, a task etc.
 
| greenie_beans wrote:
| i've tried so many different apps like this and i consistently
| return to my notes app on my macbook.
| 
| i'm not a fan of the UX or how it feels, but i can write notes
| all i want and add "keywords" or "tags" that i can search for and
| go through. todos, dates, important things, brainstorming,
| drafts, etc.
| 
| for example, for a book project, i'll write the word "preacher"
| at the top and then write some words that were in my brain. then
| i'll have 100 notes with the word "preacher" that i can search
| for and go through when i need to draft the idea. i can combine
| tags too, like adding "denny" to "preacher".
| 
| or for a work project, write the name of the project as the tag,
| some todos, meeting notes, design docs, resources, etc
 
  | anongraddebt wrote:
  | Yeah, not sure what label we'd give to a system like this but
  | it works. I basically do the same, but with Raindrop (the
  | bookmark manager). I've tried many tools and systems, but what
  | works (for me) is basically a personal data lake where semi-
  | structured/incompletely-labeled stuff can be archived.
  | 
  | For todos and calendars, I've found less is more to be
  | particularly true. I don't see how anyone gets solid ROI for
  | non-collaborative personal projects by using feature-filled
  | systems. I'm quite busy, and the minimal cognitive load of pen
  | and paper is difficult to surpass.
 
| Barrin92 wrote:
| > _Many users find it's just as useful for managing their free
| time.[...] ""You don't have to change your habits to how rigid
| software is. The software will change how your mind works," says
| Akshay Kothari, Notion's cofounder and chief operating officer"_
| 
| Stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you? "What did you
| do this weekend?, Well nothing special really, but I got a 3000
| line Notion document mapping every step of it". Can we stop
| attempting to export every workplace fad into personal lives?
| 
| Just enjoy your free time, focus on free, not on time. Compulsive
| busywork is not a replacement for spontaneity.
 
| IceWreck wrote:
| I am quite obsessed with keeping a personal wiki, like some of
| these people described in the article. However, I simply cannot
| imagine doing that in an application that isn't controlled by me
| or doesn't work completely offline. I dont want my life to be
| organized around an application that charges a subscription and
| my workflow is at the whim of a corporation.
| 
| I went from Zim to Dokuwiki to Bookstack (where I've been for the
| past 3 years). The former is an offline app and the latter two
| are self hosted. All three are FOSS.
| 
| Anyways, I did try Notion once, it was super slow (feels
| sluggish) and the search was bad.
| 
| Edit: after reading some other comments, one thing I really
| appreciate about Bookstack is that its opinionated and batteries
| included -> no falling into the "waste all your time customizing
| and perfecting your workflow" trap.
 
  | dbmikus wrote:
  | I similarly am obsessed with maintaining my own knowledgebase
  | and wanted it to be self hosted and open source.
  | 
  | I was looking at setting up a wiki and considered Dokuwiki and
  | Bookstack. I ended up using Tiddlywiki, which is by default a
  | single user wiki that is actually just a single HTML file that
  | defines the whole app and the wiki contents. This means that
  | all you need to run it is a browser that can read HTML and run
  | JS.
  | 
  | I since migrated from running it as a single HTML file to a
  | Node.js server to enable better version tracking with Git and
  | to make saving updates less cumbersome. It's a little wonky to
  | save updates to the single-file version without a custom
  | browser plugin or app.
  | 
  | Anyways, at some point I might try migrating to a more
  | traditional wiki solution as I like the idea of being able to
  | share parts of my wiki with others. But for now Tiddlywiki
  | works nicely for me!
 
  | freshbakedbread wrote:
  | Notion still does have pretty bad performance, although I
  | believe they've recently upgraded the search. It's quite good
  | at least in my experience.
 
  | shagie wrote:
  | Have you ever looked at task warrior? https://taskwarrior.org
  | (and you could host it online yourself (I believe) with
  | inthe.am - https://github.com/coddingtonbear/inthe.am if you
  | aren't comfortable with the existing version)
  | 
  | It's well documented ( https://taskwarrior.org/docs/ ) had
  | enables a number of different workflows and export and import
  | options (I've dabbled with jira imports to task warrior for my
  | own sorting views).
 
    | dbmikus wrote:
    | I used Taskwarrior before and found it worked pretty well for
    | tasks but not for longer notes or tasks that need a lot of
    | description. I used it for a few years before moving to Org
    | Mode for tasks and Tiddlywiki for my knowledgebase.
 
  | wooptoo wrote:
  | Can I ask what determined you to move away from Zim? I'm
  | currently using it and finding it quite good.
 
    | Gigachad wrote:
    | The MacOS app was unusable when I tried it
 
  | jabroni_salad wrote:
  | I'll throw tiddlywiki into the ring for the 'list of things to
  | try', it is pretty neat and I like how it is all contained in a
  | single file and it's really fun to explore inside of it.
  | 
  | But I also landed on bookstack. Weird how it turned out that
  | formatting my stuff like a book would be the best format as
  | opposed to all the super cool different ways of thinking that
  | are possible with new-gen apps. I'm not sure if books are just
  | superior or if I just personally am really wired to books, but
  | I landed on it after evernote, onenote, obsidian, joplin, and
  | Notion.
  | 
  | Basically I am using tiddly as a zettelkastan where appropriate
  | and bookstack for things that are more finalized.
  | 
  | I really wish my team would switch to BS instead of the
  | unorganized knowledgebase soup with inconsistent tagging, zero
  | curation, and bad search engine (servicenow knowledge). omg
  | what if we had an actual procedure manual instead of just
  | hoping people will enter the right search terms to land on KBs
  | they dont even know to search for. now THAT would be
  | revolutionary.
 
    | ssddanbrown wrote:
    | > Weird how it turned out that formatting my stuff like a
    | book would be the best format as opposed to all the super
    | cool different ways of thinking that are possible with new-
    | gen apps.
    | 
    | BookStack dev here. When originally building BookStack, I did
    | initially built it with infinitely nestable pages since it
    | seemed like the "technically better" approach that didn't
    | limit user content, but in use it just made UX and discovery
    | a pain, especially for the mixed-technical-skill workplace
    | environment I was targeting, which is when I landed on the
    | book > [chapter >] page setup (With shelves being a late
    | awkward addition based upon demand). Good to hear that works
    | for you. Is often the love-it-or-hate-it factor of the
    | platform.
 
  | VladimirGolovin wrote:
  | Maybe try Obsidian? It works completely offline, it's free, and
  | its stores your data as a folder of markdown files. It should
  | cover your personal wiki / Zettelkasten needs, plus, if you're
  | willing to spend some time on learning the Tasks plugin, you
  | can implement a pretty decent GTD-like system on it.
 
  | hu3 wrote:
  | Have you tried Joplin?
  | 
  | It's markdown, allows copy pasting images, embeding files like
  | PDF with preview, works offline by syncing using
  | apple/google/microsoft/dropbox cloud storage.
  | 
  | Has desktop and mobile app.
  | 
  | Free and Open Source.
 
| guessbest wrote:
| I think it is ironic that the notes for usage for Notion is in
| the embedded youtube video called 'the ultimate notion setup for
| 2023', which seems to me to be text explained in a video.
 
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Neomania / newness is definitely a thing. How many people use
| notion to organize their lives only to realize years later not
| much has changed? How much time is spent obsessing and perfecting
| your notion workspace that can be spent working on bettering your
| life?
| 
| Systems are beneficial in many aspects of life, but there has to
| come a point where there's a moderate use of a tool and the
| action that tool helps foster.
| 
| Perfectionism is a battle many face and few conquer. Notion makes
| you feel productive, but how productive are you really?
 
| [deleted]
 
| Anti-Thony wrote:
| Can somebody recommend a simple app to do the following: keep a
| list of tasks and estimations of time required to complete them.
| When I insert an item between existing tasks, all the dates of
| subsequent tasks should be automatically updated. That is really
| all I need, but so far I have not find to right tool for this.
 
| ryanlime wrote:
| As someone who has tried a variety of productivity tools: Trello,
| Jira, Notepad, religious google calendar-ing, Notion, I've only
| really stuck with two things: notepad and Notion.
| 
| Notepad just allows me to get simple thoughts down and easily
| reorganize information. I then adapted that workflow with Notion
| and have been pretty happy with it so far: tracking daily todos,
| trip plans, workout routines.
| 
| What I've enjoyed most about notion is that it lets me do
| something as simple as my daily routines but also helps me
| plan/track things for technical side projects as well. I really
| think the flexibility, which many other tools don't have, is what
| I'm drawn to here
 
| baron321 wrote:
| A tool should be simple with good defaults requiring little to no
| configuration but offering enough flexibility to get your work
| done and no more. Anything more or less is just noise.
| 
| More often than not, your work does not require complex tools
| with unlimited flexibility and configurability. Notion is an
| amazing tool but it can get in your way. It was designed to be
| shaped and transformed by each user in the way they want. That
| should be a good thing but only a few people actually need that
| level of control.
| 
| Even for team-based workflows, I have personally been more
| productive when using simple tools with good defaults. Whenever
| there is talk of setting up things and learning curves outside of
| your actual work, know that it is most probably unnecessary.
 
| porridgeraisin wrote:
| Most of my notes are just... Unstructured text and images. So I
| just put it on WhatsApp in a group with just me. Searchable, any
| device, offline on mobile, the lots.
| 
| I screenshot excalidraw diagrams and put them in there as well,
| if I wanna do that.
| 
| Personally, rarely do I have the need to store a structured and
| queryable list as part of my notes.
 
| mtsolitary wrote:
| Are these people not worried about storing _their entire lives_
| in some SaaS company 's proprietary format on their cloud
| servers?
 
  | rchaud wrote:
  | Notion's biggest market is students that have grown up with
  | Google Docs. The idea of local storage is long gone for the
  | "digital natives" generation. There was even this story from a
  | couple of years ago from an engineering professor who had to
  | change how she taught basic concepts because her students
  | weren't familiar with folder-based file systems [0].
  | 
  | [0] https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-
  | direc...
 
    | Invictus0 wrote:
    | That idea will come right back when one of their favorite
    | services pulls the plug.
 
      | rchaud wrote:
      | The majority won't. I have seen this myself, as I did not
      | like the SaaS nature of Roam Research, and wanted a local-
      | first solution. There is a large community of people using
      | Logseq or Obsidian, but they are still a tiny monitory as
      | these products don't have name recognition and there aren't
      | as many polished videos about them on YT.
 
    | coding123 wrote:
    | Generation before me does that.
    | 
    | My generation knows what a file is.
    | 
    | Generation after me does that.
 
  | quaintdev wrote:
  | They probably don't care or think they have nothing to hide or
  | probably never stumbled across numerous self hosted
  | alternatives
  | 
  | https://selfhosting.quest/search?q=wiki
 
    | agentdrtran wrote:
    | The average person is not capable of self-hosting software
    | and SaaS is much nicer looking / more fully features 99% of
    | the time. I say this as someone who loves self-hosting and
    | self hosts most of my own stuff.
 
    | dividedbyzero wrote:
    | Self-hosting also means you'll have to make sure it's up and
    | secure at all times. I used to self-host a ton of things, but
    | keeping a decent security posture has become so much effort
    | it's just no longer feasible for me, and no longer fun, so I
    | try to use SaaS with a good track record and a backup/export
    | option for anything critical these days.
 
      | tylergetsay wrote:
      | Self hosting has only got easier in the security regard
      | thanks to solutions like tailscale
 
        | dividedbyzero wrote:
        | Tailscale is a centralized service that your whole
        | network is exposed to. I'm using them but if you're self-
        | hosting for security or privacy reasons, that's probably
        | not what you'd want as they or someone who compromises
        | them would essentially own your network and it doesn't
        | get much more critical than that. You can monitor and
        | harden your infrastructure against that, but that's no
        | longer easy. If you trust Tailscale with all your
        | traffic, including from/to your notes app, I guess you
        | could just as well trust a SaaS notes solution with a
        | good track record and support for exports/backups.
 
        | freedomben wrote:
        | Tailscale is only partially centralized (the admin
        | portion). The actual traffic flow is not.
        | 
        | But also, I use Headscale so I'm self-hosting my
        | tailscale as well.
        | 
        | As a self-hoster, I would totally recommend to the
        | average person to self-host services on your LAN, and
        | just use tailscale to extend your LAN beyond your house
        | (for example on your laptop and phone) so you can get to
        | things when you're not at home. Don't let perfect be the
        | enemy of good.
 
        | Thrymr wrote:
        | I like self-hosting when I can, too, but I certainly
        | wouldn't recommend it to the "average person". Especially
        | if they would come back to me for tech support.
 
    | Karunamon wrote:
    | A generic wiki is not an alternative to Notion. And believe
    | me, I have looked.
 
      | IceWreck wrote:
      | Might not be for you but it is for me and countless others.
 
  | koliber wrote:
  | I am. I export my Notion to HTML regularly. I can do a plain
  | text search on it.
  | 
  | I actually do regularly go back and search my notes and
  | journals within Notion. Knowing that I will be able to do it if
  | I ever leave Notion is comforting.
  | 
  | P.S. If anyone at Notion is reading this, please work on your
  | search. It could be so much more useful.
 
    | jitl wrote:
    | We know, and we are!
 
  | sligor wrote:
  | you can export and backup your entire workspace in usable
  | format ( markdown for pages + csv for databases + attachments).
 
  | HPsquared wrote:
  | I wonder if they offer an option to export the data in some
  | usable format.
 
    | PradeetPatel wrote:
    | Unless there's a tangible monetary benefit in doing so, I
    | don't see why that would be a good business decision.
    | 
    | It is likely that there will be some use cases for power
    | users, however one must justify the development and
    | opportunity costs associated with that.
 
      | corobo wrote:
      | Seems like they do from a quick googlin'
      | 
      | https://www.notion.so/help/export-your-content
      | 
      | https://www.notion.so/help/back-up-your-data
      | 
      | > one must justify the development and opportunity costs
      | 
      | GDPR
 
    | idontknowifican wrote:
    | yes, markdown
 
    | geraltofrivia wrote:
    | It's not the most intuitive export (since there are
    | backlinks, complex hierarchy, databases and all that jazz in
    | Notion pages) but they do return Markdown for every page, CSV
    | for databases (with some information loss), maintain folder
    | structures, and multimedia attachments.
    | 
    | A quick search shows me that Notion exports can be used to
    | populate Obsidian [1] (which implies that there's not
    | substantial information loss).
    | 
    | [1] - https://forum.obsidian.md/t/notion-2-obsidian-
    | migration-inst...
 
    | jitl wrote:
    | (I work at Notion)
    | 
    | We support Markdown/CSV "plain text" export, a semantically-
    | rich HTML export, and a PDF export which is just the HTML
    | export rendered as a PDF.
    | 
    | https://www.notion.so/help/export-your-content
 
| NemoNobody wrote:
| This was a great ad
 
| bnjms wrote:
| I need a replacement for MS OneNote for reasons including it
| feels too rigid. And I know people here have tested most things.
| 
| The only important feature I need is ability to paste screenshots
| into it. Then an easy way to mark text for monospaced fonts for
| text copied from a terminal and back for notes.
| 
| A quick overview of all of these makes it look like only OneNote
| does that well and the rest are text only.
 
  | bbkane wrote:
  | This was almost exactly my requirements -
  | https://www.bbkane.com/blog/how-i-take-notes/
  | 
  | I landed on https://typora.io/ and I've been pretty happy ever
  | since
 
  | funOtter wrote:
  | I was in your same situation a few years ago. Switched over to
  | "Joplin" - works great. Copy/paste screenshots works great. All
  | in markdown.
 
| SN76477 wrote:
| I'm one of those people ... but Notion has let me down too many
| times. I've had to move on.
 
| BogdanPetre wrote:
| Notion's strength lies in its ability to combine different types
| of content in a single, customizable workspace.Trello is a great
| choice if you want a simple, visual way to manage your tasks and
| projects. It's particularly well-suited for teams that are
| focused on task management and want a clear, easy-to-use
| interface
 
| philosopher1234 wrote:
| I hate these people. It's the wrong way to live. Life is not
| about getting a high score in productivity or financially. I pity
| the people in their lives who are being optimized like some kind
| of machine/chore. It sounds so loveless
 
  | leobabauta wrote:
  | I wonder if you notice the lovelessness in hating them and
  | pitying them.
 
    | philosopher1234 wrote:
    | Tru. Or maybe I hate them because I love them enough o want
    | better. Or maybe I am just cruel and loveless.
 
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| I don't get the notion hype, I just don't like it.
| 
| Even worse, is you go on product hunt and there are nonstop
| 'product' launches which are just notion templates named
| 'operating systems' being sold at crazy prices for what they are.
| 
| I don't get what I am missing. I personally love and use Trello,
| because it's basically just a bunch of lists that I can drag and
| drop too, i have a boards named 'spark board, where i keep lists
| of things I am interested in, it's a list of movies, tv shows,
| games to play, things to eat, things i might want to buy, even
| lists for different people and things they mentioned so i have
| gifts for them when it comes time to buy, whenever i need
| anything I just go there, search the list and find something, but
| notion is just annoying to me, I hate the UI and i don't see the
| point in it.
 
  | tomrod wrote:
  | This article reads like an ad.
  | 
  | Perhaps I live under a tech rock, but I have not heard of
  | notion before today. And I don't like that it is being shilled.
 
    | hgsgm wrote:
    | The website is Technology Review. If course it's an ad.
 
    | waboremo wrote:
    | I envy the person who has been able to avoid Notion
    | advertising in the past ~5 years.
 
      | tomrod wrote:
      | Rare is it that I am envied.
      | 
      | Obsidian I've enjoyed, but find it difficult to become
      | fluent with it.
 
        | iamthirsty wrote:
        | It is almost unbelievable to me that anyone who's been
        | able to become aware of & use a niche app like Obsidian
        | has _never_ come across Notion. Obsidian is definitely a
        | power-user tool, which one would _usually_ use after
        | considering the other options, with Notion being almost
        | as default as a choice as Evernote once was.
        | 
        | Additionally, a lot of apps now are even using it as
        | their support bases. It almost feels unavoidable at this
        | point.
 
        | tomrod wrote:
        | Not sure what to tell you. A sharp new developer I
        | respect a lot pointed me towards Obsidian, and so it
        | goes. Other than that, my recent search history shows the
        | past few years are focused on python, pola.rs, Rust, data
        | science, databricks, Oracle, Postgres, DuckDB, and the
        | legal and administrative aspects of running a business,
        | with the occasional dataset documentation search.
 
        | pcthrowaway wrote:
        | This is equally bizarre to me, and I haven't used either.
        | I definitely hear about Obsidian more on HN and at work
        | because coworkers use it.
        | 
        | But knowing what Obsidian is and not Notion is sort of
        | like knowing what Markdown is but having never heard of
        | Microsoft Word.
 
  | gms7777 wrote:
  | I use Notion as a personal work notebook. I like it for its
  | lack of rigidity and fixed structure. I've always struggled
  | with tools like Trello because they have a specific model that
  | you need to fit your usage into. Then again, I'm not a Notion
  | power user, nor do I make heavy use of templates outside of a
  | few I've designed myself, so I'm definitely not one of the
  | "hype"rs
 
    | epolanski wrote:
    | You and I I believe are the same type of user.
    | 
    | I barely ever used databases. I have a journal with my daily
    | work todos, notes about technology, company, people I want to
    | keep. It's god for that I can share content with my
    | friends/coworkers, it does already way too many things for
    | me.
 
  | jdgoesmarching wrote:
  | Weird that nobody's mentioned it yet, but the main value
  | proposition of Notion is that is uses mini-relational databases
  | instead of tables. It's like Airtable baked inside of a note
  | app.
  | 
  | It has a ton of downsides like being slow, not having offline
  | access, and no E2E encryption, but there are few tools that
  | execute well on the approachable database concept. I wish there
  | were more, because the standard approach of doing bizarre
  | spreadsheet hacks to achieve the same functionality is much
  | less intuitive to me.
  | 
  | The reason there's an entire weird industry around Notion is
  | not surprising to most people here: relational databases are
  | useful. Unfortunately, most database tools are too
  | unapproachable or cumbersome for most. Notion and Airtable
  | wrapped a good UX around creating semi-primitive rdbs and here
  | we are.
 
    | bovermyer wrote:
    | Atlassian's Confluence is apparently launching databases as a
    | feature soon. The screenshots I've seen look very similar to
    | Notion.
 
    | sillysaurusx wrote:
    | Be sure to mention that if you dare venture down the path of
    | learning about this mysterious mini-relational database,
    | emerging with useful knowledge will cost you three quarters
    | of your sanity and the soul of your firstborn.
    | 
    | It's not quite that bad, but every. Single. Time. that I've
    | been intrigued about notion's advanced features, I've slapped
    | myself two hours later and said "get back to work; you could
    | spend your whole life learning about this. Or at least your
    | whole weekend."
 
      | jeron wrote:
      | For me it's one of those learn it once and get it over
      | with. They really are powerful and if you spend one weekend
      | on learning, it should be enough to go a long way.
 
    | 015a wrote:
    | I've put some thought into how cool it would be to have a
    | feature similar to Notion databases within Obsidian; probably
    | not integrated into the markdown document, but similar to
    | their new Canvas feature, separate files next to markdown
    | documents which map to SQLite databases with a standard
    | schema that you can browse right within Obsidian. Feels like
    | something an add-on could exist for, but doesn't; and/or I
    | hope its something the Obsidian team is thinking about now
    | that Canvases are shipped.
 
      | jdgoesmarching wrote:
      | Dataview can get you part of the way there, but it's not an
      | easy learning curve and requires a lot of consistent
      | metadata management. Also Obsidian somehow has a worse
      | mobile experience than Notion, which is also a no-go for me
      | when I need quick data entry.
      | 
      | I remember Federico Viticci at MacStories doing some crazy
      | stuff with extensions and Siri Shortcuts that could address
      | those problems, which might be worth exploring if it's
      | important enough to ya. I have no desire to go down that
      | path.
 
      | PurpleRamen wrote:
      | Obsidian is at the moment not really well-equipped for this
      | task, even though some extensions tried to implement it. I
      | think the major problem is that freetext like markdown
      | simply sucks for managing structured data. And even though
      | there is something like dataview, which enable some level
      | of database-like behavior, it's too limited at the moment.
      | But, there is a successor(?) to dataview in work which aims
      | to be more like notion, and Obsidian seems to have some
      | features on their roadmap which might also be helpful in
      | that regard. So may, in a year or two the situation will
      | have improved?
      | 
      | But frankly spoken, I don't think Obsidian is really a good
      | solution for this. IT should be the other way around, based
      | on a structured format like JSON, and enable a freeform-
      | document which can be extended. Notion is doing this, and
      | while their internals kinda suck, it's far easier for them
      | to move their goals and improve their app.
 
      | jmcphers wrote:
      | I'll second this. I use Obsidian and don't find the Canvas
      | useful at all, but would love a structured way to query
      | data from my vault.
 
    | epolanski wrote:
    | Could you expand in more details?
 
    | carimura wrote:
    | That's exactly how I felt about Salesforce over many years of
    | customizing it to basically be a UI on top of a relational DB
    | with a nice import tool and some workflows built in.
    | 
    | But apparently it's out of vogue now and Notion and others
    | are the "web 2" versions of that with more Javascript.
 
    | Zetobal wrote:
    | You would have loved filemaker back in the day.
 
    | aaronharnly wrote:
    | The best thing about Notion is that it's not just (EAV)
    | relational databases -- it's that freely mixed with
    | unstructured rich text, including collaboration features like
    | love editing and comments.
 
  | jitl wrote:
  | (I work for Notion)
  | 
  | Notion is also "basically just a bunch of lists", plus titles.
  | Pages in Notion are a title, and a list of blocks. Text blocks
  | are a title (the text of the block) and a list, it's indented
  | children.
  | 
  | We also have boards like Trello, and you can drag and drop list
  | items between boards, pages, paragraphs, everywhere. Maybe you
  | could see it as everything you like about Trello, but applied
  | to more modalities of content.
 
    | shafyy wrote:
    | What are you talking about? Notion is clearly not just a
    | bunch of lists like Trello is.
 
      | samueldurante wrote:
      | The implementation of the Notion can be bunch of lists,
      | like Trello. However Notion's UI doesn't pass this feeling.
 
      | jitl wrote:
      | Semantically our data model is an infinitely nested
      | hierarchical tree of lists, although the UI might not look
      | or feel like "just a list".
      | 
      | Our editor is more like an "outliner" than a traditional
      | word processor, and before January 2022, you could't even
      | select text across multiple blocks. We rebuilt the editor
      | to work like both an outliner and a traditional word
      | processor at the same time. You can still "feel" the
      | tree/list structure when you select and drag multiple
      | blocks around, or use indent/dedent - you can't indent a
      | block multiple times within another block because that
      | doesn't make sense in the tree structure.
      | 
      | I wrote a bit about turning our outliner into a word
      | processor here:
      | https://twitter.com/jitl/status/1483918085384028163
      | 
      | And also about the data model itself here:
      | https://www.notion.so/blog/data-model-behind-notion
 
        | tough wrote:
        | Thanks for letting us know about the details, honestly
        | not being able to select text between blocks was wan of
        | the UX deal-breakers for me, seemed like a way to avoid
        | -exporting- your docs or whatever not allowing to copy
        | the document fully easily. Glad its solved
 
        | shafyy wrote:
        | Thanks for the detailed explanation. But you do
        | understand that from an enduser view, this doesn't really
        | matter? What the original commenter meant that they like
        | the simplicity of Trello, because it's just a kanban
        | board. Notion is much more flexible than that as a user.
 
        | ChildOfChaos wrote:
        | Yep can confirm.
        | 
        | I just don't like recreating a kanban board in Notion, it
        | just seems too complex and cluttered, I don't care about
        | all the other stuff, I love trello for how simple it is,
        | but I keep finding different ways to use it, the
        | simplicity is the key as it allows me just to dump what I
        | want into it and use it however I wish, Notion is just
        | overwhelming for me.
 
        | jdougan wrote:
        | Ah, so it mirrors the NLS internals
 
      | eropple wrote:
      | It can be, if you want it to be.
      | 
      | https://www.notion.so/templates/kanban-board
      | 
      | I use this all the time, alongside my other personal
      | databases and such. I wish there was an open source or
      | self-hostable gizmo that was as flexible as Notion is.
 
      | PurpleRamen wrote:
      | The underlying data structure is really just a list of
      | typed elements. But the interface is also hiding this
      | pretty well, to the point that it becomes a bit messy on
      | the corners, making it hard for new users. Trello in that
      | regard is significant cleaner in its representation, but
      | also more limited.
 
    | calf wrote:
    | I'm confused, people have said Notion is a relational
    | database. Is that not the same as "trees of lists"?
    | 
    | I thought a relational database like MySQL or whatever is
    | formally more powerful than trees and list structures.
 
    | saint_yossarian wrote:
    | I tried Notion once to replace a Trello board, but couldn't
    | find a way to have cards with checklists inside.
 
  | blitzar wrote:
  | > I don't get the notion hype, I just don't like it.
  | 
  | Remember Evernote ... that was going to change your life once
  | upon at time.
  | 
  | Are any of these things bad? Not really. Will any of them
  | change your life ... almost certainly not, unless your life is
  | making hype content on social media for these products and you
  | manage to become a fully fledged "influencer".
 
  | epolanski wrote:
  | I think it's okay, I use it because it was the first polished
  | app I could read and edit notes from so many devices.
  | 
  | But the idea Notion is a 100M business, let alone a 10B valued
  | company is madness.
 
  | waboremo wrote:
  | This isn't an endorsement for Notion, I also dislike it and use
  | other tools. I can see why some do however, it's a solid second
  | brain organizational tool, somewhere to place things "long
  | term" and keep them. It's a less "active" tool, which is also
  | why for some people I think Notion is the wrong solution but
  | for others works great. Think: internal team documents in one
  | central place (less active) vs updating your app's
  | documentation multiple times an hour (more active), the latter
  | of which is not what Notion is good for at all. Also I will
  | say, with their API you can technically hook up whatever
  | databases you have within Notion for use, so it can easily
  | become a place to store your blog notes and use them without
  | copying/pasting. But again, blog notes are rarely changing so
  | you see the pattern here I hope.
  | 
  | I also don't get the notion template hype on
  | gumroad/etsy/producthunt/etc. You can create them yourself
  | within seconds, but that's the nature of the "productivity
  | industry", you get big bucks for the mere idea that your
  | product will make their life easier/faster.
 
    | epolanski wrote:
    | > the latter of which is not what Notion is good for at all
    | 
    | why?
 
  | iamthirsty wrote:
  | > I don't get the notion hype, I just don't like it.
  | 
  | > I don't get what I am missing.
  | 
  | 100% agree. Notion doesn't work like my brain when it comes to
  | documents, formatting, structuring -- I ended up spending most
  | of my time configuring systems and formatting than actually
  | inputting information & accomplishing things.
  | 
  | I've tried a few times to get into it, and see what others see
  | in it. I just can't.
 
    | nonethewiser wrote:
    | > I ended up spending most of my time configuring systems and
    | formatting than actually inputting information &
    | accomplishing things.
    | 
    | I end up feeling this way about a lot of "productivity" tools
    | like notion, obsidian, and ESPECIALLY Arch browser. I don't
    | want to have to learn how to use a tool that I'm using to do
    | something fundamental like visit websites or take notes. Give
    | me the barest abstraction possible over these features.
    | 
    | Do not ask me to make extra decisions to do basic things like
    | open a tab (decide between 3 levels of ephemeral and how it
    | relates to other tabs). And don't automatically close shit on
    | some arbitrary schedule which can't be disabled!
 
      | iamthirsty wrote:
      | Ironically, the best productivity tools I've used in & for
      | the past ten years has been Things, and my Moleskine
      | notebooks. Incredibly simple system, and while both can be
      | considered a bit expensive, the work every time, without
      | fail, in a way that makes sense and creates the results I
      | expect and require.
      | 
      | I've found the simple things that are high quality work the
      | best for me, in almost all aspects of life.
 
        | codpiece wrote:
        | Me too. I spent New Years Eve reviewing my journals (wife
        | was sleeping) all the way back from 2013 and found some
        | very enlightening arcs that would not be available with
        | transient data. Some things just need to be read rather
        | than presented.
 
| Jackevansevo wrote:
| The 23 minute video linked on the "ultimate notion setup for
| 2023" sounds like a great trap to fall into to not actually get
| anything done. I get the impression some people spend more time
| configuring these productivity tools instead of actually being
| productive.
| 
| Although I admit I've been guilty the same thing, perfecting my
| .vimrc instead of actually working on projects. Messing around
| with static site blog generators when I should actually just be
| writing content.
 
  | jitl wrote:
  | (I work for Notion)
  | 
  | This is certainly a trap with any tool with exciting
  | possibilities.
  | 
  | I personally don't use any templates; I'm of the "brutalist
  | Notion" school of thought. When I want to use Notion for
  | something, I start with the simplest possible approach that
  | could work. Then I add Notion features if they prove necessary.
  | So for something like household chores, I started a Notion page
  | called "chores" and just add to-do checkboxes there when
  | there's a new task, and at-mention myself or my partner to
  | assign things if needed. This is instead of making a database
  | with status, assign property etc.
  | 
  | We do use some separate databases for shopping, meal
  | planning/recipes, and make larger pages for specific trips.
  | Keeping things simple initially and adding complexity where
  | it's needed means you never over-invest in a system that's not
  | necessary. Plus, every column you add to a database is one more
  | bit of work you need to do to "file" something completely. I
  | find it discouraging to add friction to stuff I already
  | consider a chore that I want to avoid.
 
  | fogoflove wrote:
  | I have diagnosed ADHD and I have struggled with this, but like
  | someone else said, you have to make sure you don't fall into a
  | hole trying to make one of your pages perfect -- I mean, go for
  | it if that's what you're interested in, but I have accepted
  | that something perfect for me will take refinement and delayed
  | gratification.
 
  | dclowd9901 wrote:
  | I use Trello for car restoration projects, and I'll admit I
  | lost basically an entire day just trying to get this automated
  | workflow to happen. But after having figured it out, it made
  | things like cataloguing new parts that I need a 0 second
  | automated process vs a 1 minute manual process. Like basically
  | infinite time gotten back.
  | 
  | The biggest win imo is it took a rote and tedious task
  | (inventory management) associated with my fun task (working on
  | a car) and removed it from my fun task which allows me to enjoy
  | my fun task more and gives me greater odds of completing it.
 
  | nyarlathotep_ wrote:
  | > perfecting my .vimrc instead of actually working on projects.
  | Messing around with static site blog generators when I should
  | actually just be writing content.
  | 
  | I feel attacked.
 
  | PragmaticPulp wrote:
  | The same thing happens in the workplace, too. My last two jobs
  | have had groups that adopted Notion and tried to use heaps of
  | rules and templates and emojis that they wanted everyone to use
  | to structure and document everything in Notion.
  | 
  | It turns into an exercise where the Notion document becomes the
  | goal, rather than a tool to help get work done.
  | 
  | The Product Management group at my last company was the worst
  | at this. They had hundreds of Notion pages that supposedly
  | collected everything and show them in meetings, slide decks,
  | and at every chance they had as proof that they were on top of
  | things. Yet they could barely do any product management work
  | that we needed to ship product because their whole world
  | revolves around building Notion pages rather than building
  | products.
  | 
  | The sad part was that it worked, at least for a while.
  | Executives would praise the team for being so organized and
  | always having so much to show in presentations. Eventually
  | people started to realize that they were lost in the process of
  | writing Notion docs rather than focusing on getting work done,
  | but it took a long time.
 
    | blakblakarak wrote:
    | We tried it where I work and had the same result - we've
    | since gone back to boring old Redmine. I do think it's great
    | for personal use though - I use for everything from shopping
    | lists to dream journals (don't judge me ;) ) to 5 year plans.
 
      | freedomben wrote:
      | Redmine is amazing! Way underrated.
      | https://www.redmine.org/
 
    | spzb wrote:
    | > It turns into an exercise where the Notion document becomes
    | the goal, rather than a tool to help get work done.
    | 
    | Same, except it's Jira and Confluence. Everything has to have
    | story points assigned to it just so we can say we did an
    | arbitrary number of points per sprint and show a impressive
    | looking graph in retrospectives.
 
      | huehehue wrote:
      | > Everything has to have story points assigned to it just
      | so we can say we did an arbitrary number of points per
      | sprint
      | 
      | If you have a manager that's treating N points as a target,
      | then you just have a bad manager. Sprint points are just a
      | signal for how over/under your estimates are on average, to
      | help inform future planning. If someone goes on vacation,
      | how do I know how much work the remaining team can handle?
      | It's also a good signal for measuring the impact of
      | team/process changes (to be clear, the idea here is post
      | hoc analysis and not +N points as a target).
      | 
      | That said, how would you prefer to handle capacity
      | planning? Points aren't perfect, but trends should
      | stabilize over time (you can have
      | predictability/consistency without precision). You can even
      | map point values to ranges of time (e.g. 1 point = [2, 8]
      | hours) if it helps.
 
        | epolanski wrote:
        | I've never ever seen this estimation game lead to any
        | better planning, ever.
 
        | huehehue wrote:
        | I can't think of any healthy team dynamic that doesn't
        | require some form of deliverability estimates (this is
        | not limited to engineering), and am very curious how you
        | approach this.
 
        | epolanski wrote:
        | Ideally a good tech lead with a pulse of his team and
        | stack should be able to do it alone. When estimations are
        | crucial they can be further analyzed with more people.
        | 
        | It's the beaurocratic gamification aspect I despise.
 
      | nuancebydefault wrote:
      | As long as you use Jira and Confluence to track what you
      | are doing and make handy reference notes, they work super
      | good.
      | 
      | About showing burn down chats: usually they are shown a few
      | times in early stages of the project, but don't get any
      | attention anymore once they start showing unwanted or
      | erratic results.
      | 
      | Also story points estimations/tracking (as opposed to time
      | in real world units) : never saw it work in practice.
      | 
      | Whoever says software/hardware project time schedules are
      | 'under control' or 'predictable' is probably joking.
 
        | majormajor wrote:
        | > About showing burn down chats: usually they are shown a
        | few times in early stages of the project, but don't get
        | any attention anymore once they start showing unwanted or
        | erratic results.
        | 
        | If your management can't understand these charts -
        | including when you get results you don't want - I think
        | your management is failing.
        | 
        | E.g. if you don't realize "whoa there's a lot more
        | ambiguity here than we expected and it's causing big
        | delay" until the project goes sideways trying to find
        | clarity, then you missed something big in your earlier
        | planning and estimation.
        | 
        | And whether or not it was important to spend the time to
        | try to get a more accurate estimate vs just start
        | building should be a business-requirement and project-
        | specific decision, but it should be a _conscious_ one.
 
        | Macha wrote:
        | I would argue that the performance of Jira being what it
        | is along makes it pretty unsuitable for just taking
        | reference notes. Our onprem hosted instance is pretty
        | slow, which you might blame on server provisioning,
        | except last time I used Jira cloud it was even worse with
        | an empty instance (compared to our at least multiple
        | million tickets instance)
 
        | nuancebydefault wrote:
        | Well Confluence is for the handy notes, which can grow
        | into quality documents if you have them reviewed and
        | updated. Personally never experienced performance issues.
 
    | Spivak wrote:
    | That's why you have someone whose job is to make that
    | Notion/Confluence/Dokku who is part designer, part technical
    | writer. They're sometimes called company historians.
    | 
    | It is the only solution I've ever seen for the "documentation
    | always gets cut" problem with SWE. Someone's whole work
    | stream is _thorough_ documentation and knowing everything.
    | How features work, what customers requested them, what
    | technical trade-offs were made and why.
    | 
    | I miss having one of these people every day at $dayjob. She
    | would make _reports_ for questions that 's needed a thorough
    | response. I asked what I thought was an innocent question
    | about what a small kafka cluster was used for and I got back
    | a long-ass document that outlined the whole saga, the
    | complaints the customer had, the VP discussions, the MRs that
    | introduced it, other things people proposed and why they were
    | shot down, meeting notes, screenshots of the discussion on
    | Slack. Like hot damn.
 
      | jen729w wrote:
      | Yes! I'm Johnny.Decimal and I'm starting to advocate for
      | the idea of 'the Librarian' at work. You need someone to
      | organise your stuff. That person needs the right skills --
      | passion, even -- to do that job.
      | 
      | Today that role is filled by either a) nobody or b) the
      | lowest lackey who doesn't give a hoot about the concept.
 
      | asherah wrote:
      | i hadn't ever heard of this but this sounds immensely
      | helpful. i wish this were a more common practice!
 
    | majormajor wrote:
    | This is one of the lowest hanging fruits for generative AI in
    | the workplace: let the language model rewrite people's notes
    | into the structured form.
 
  | julianlam wrote:
  | > I get the impression some people spend more time configuring
  | these productivity tools instead of actually being productive.
  | 
  | I think that's not a consequence of the software, but that some
  | people have an innate draw towards these sorts of activities.
  | 
  | e.g. take a look at the community around journalling. Tons and
  | tons of subjectively beautiful layouts and designs, and
  | productivity is merely a side effect.
 
    | waboremo wrote:
    | Or look on amazon, there are so many extremely well selling
    | books based around that very idea. Unfortunately the end
    | result is usually feeling productive by reading the book, but
    | then never actually being productive outside of that.
 
  | sveme wrote:
  | Now this is a fascinating take, as exactly that thought was
  | discussed in a concurrent thread on HN:
  | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35670129
  | 
  | The phenomenon you describe (the configurators instead of
  | doers) can be found in the upper right corner of the schema in
  | the linked post.
 
    | alwaysbeconsing wrote:
    | Excellent cross-link, thank you! That was not on my front
    | pages and I would have missed it.
 
  | PurpleRamen wrote:
  | There is value in structure and rules, to clear your mind and
  | give you orientation for your work. But everyone is also
  | different, so you also need to first figure out the structures
  | and rules which are working for you and your situations. Which,
  | yeah..it's an eternal trap of bike sheeding. Flexible tools
  | like notion are very helpful and seductive in those regards.
  | They can help you get your things done, but can also led you
  | astray to the wrong roads.
  | 
  | I think at this point it might be useful to have some studies
  | in how selforganization-porn-addicts and mental health issues
  | correlate. I get the impression that people with adhs for
  | example are more likely to search out this kind of
  | tools&systems to get some control over their mind&life back. I
  | know it's at least for me the case.
 
  | mock-possum wrote:
  | There was just a post about the distinction between being
  | someone who fiddled with tuning a bike, versus someone who
  | rides a bike - and how ultimately complete devotion to one must
  | preclude the other. (Or the more charitable version, there was
  | only really time in most people's lives for the serious
  | practice of one side of the hobby, not the other - you can't be
  | taking apart your bike and putting it back together _and_ be
  | riding it all at the same time)
  | 
  | Tinkering with tooling and 'process' with software seems like
  | it could be another realm of that principle. You can either
  | spend the next week playing with syncing, hosting, processing,
  | making sure your extensions and utilities all hook seamlessly
  | into eachother... or you could have spent that week writing
  | using just notepad and already have X-thousand words down.
  | 
  | (There's probably a happy medium for everyone though)
 
  | rvense wrote:
  | When I first got into Linux it seemed like a lot of people
  | mostly used Linux to configure desktop environments and Conky
  | to take screenshots of.
  | 
  | There's a Buddhist parable about someone spending their whole
  | life building a boat to cross a small river and dying before
  | they made it across.
 
    | shruggedatlas wrote:
    | I think you're referring to "The Parable of the Raft", which
    | describes a man who has built a raft and crossed a river with
    | it debating whether to hold on to the raft or not.
 
      | rvense wrote:
      | That sounds right, thank you for the reference.
 
        | hammyhavoc wrote:
        | It's right, but I actually really like your paraphrased
        | version for this context. It resonated with me.
 
    | Swizec wrote:
    | I used to be a total Linux nerd throughout highschool. To the
    | point of being a Gentoo user! On a machine that took 3 days
    | to build KDE.
    | 
    | Around freshman year of college I switched to Mac. Realized I
    | wanted my computer to be a tool, not a hobby. Some config is
    | fine, but for the most part I stick to the defaults now and
    | trust that people who spent years thinking about this stuff
    | have it handled. If they don't, it's probably because I'm not
    | their target user and should pick a different app or OS.
 
    | 226_ebro_treaty wrote:
    | It happened to me :-)
    | 
    | But the older I get, the more I prefer Window's Traditional
    | UI. Needless to say, I don't like W11's design choices at
    | all.
 
    | bakul wrote:
    | Nothing wrong with spending one's life building a boat if
    | that is what floats your boat. It is the journey, not the
    | destination, where you spend the most time so might as well
    | make it a happy one!
 
  | tombert wrote:
  | I don't use Notion, but I kind of fell down the similar
  | Obsidian rabbit hole.
  | 
  | Obsidian is interesting because it makes you really _feel_ like
  | you 're being productive, creating links and little "mini
  | wikis", but it didn't seem like I was actually accomplishing
  | more.
  | 
  | I still use the app for notes, but now I mostly use it for just
  | a "relatively easy to search" notes app.
 
    | gherkinnn wrote:
    | At the end of the day, Obsidian is a specialised file
    | explorer operating on text files, links, and images. It is
    | about as simple as it can get.
    | 
    | It doesn't offer a fraction of what Notion does. The rabbit
    | hole is so much shallower.
 
      | PurpleRamen wrote:
      | Obsidian's rabbit hole is hidden in the extensions, which
      | are going far deeper than Notion extension-options. It's
      | really such a shame that Notion has no local native
      | extension-ability.
 
      | whats_a_quasar wrote:
      | I think it's a different sort of rabbit hole. If you lean
      | in to the graph-based organization and try to build a mind-
      | map, it can get pretty deep. I had to restrain myself when
      | I found organizing every market segment and competitor in
      | my industry, or every technical topic I'd ever come across.
      | 
      | In Notion I think the rabbit hole is overly-complicated
      | documents. In Obsidian it's going crazy with the graph and
      | volume. That and finding the optimal set of plugins.
 
      | tombert wrote:
      | Sort of? There's a bunch of plugins for Obsidian that
      | really do augment the hell out of it, so it's still a
      | reasonably deep rabbit hole.
 
    | leoedin wrote:
    | Obsidian makes a big deal of their graph view, but in the
    | time I've been using it I've never touched it. I really like
    | the WYSIWYG-ish markdown editor and the search seems to
    | actually work. Those are the killer features for me. I tend
    | to just make a new working note every week, copying last
    | week's outstanding to-dos on Monday morning.
 
      | tombert wrote:
      | I'm more or less in the same boat. I like that app a lot, I
      | even pay for it, but I think the graph view is largely a
      | novelty.
      | 
      | I very occasionally utilize the "linking" features with the
      | [[]], but I only really do it when there's an obvious link,
      | not because I care much about a mind map.
      | 
      | Though to be honest, the thing that gets 99% usage is "just
      | a place to copy and paste stuff so I don't lose it".
 
  | sureglymop wrote:
  | Same here. I then ended up just using pandoc and a small shell
  | script and it's served as a great static site generator letting
  | me focus on writing my markdown.
 
  | 015a wrote:
  | I'm going to be a little mean here, but I think it needs to be
  | said: "How to be productive in Notion" videos and template
  | sales sites and such are always made by boringly unsuccessful
  | people. I would _love_ to see a broader intensive study on this
  | topic, but just from my observations: its youtube and tik tok
  | creators with a few thousand viewers, people who may actually
  | be rather busy but don 't drive much success from what they do.
  | Running on a treadmill (and spending hours a week planning that
  | run) so to speak.
  | 
  | Subsequently: Go ask the CEO or other leaders of your company
  | the systems they use to stay organized. I bet twenty bucks that
  | the most common answers to that question, when limited to the
  | note-taking space, are: Nothing, and Apple Notes. If that
  | definition of success isn't your cup of tea, then go ask who
  | you perceive as the most productive person you work with. I did
  | that very specifically with this extremely talented and
  | productive engineer on my team, and his answer: markdown files
  | in a big folder, grep, and vim. Ok greybeard :)
  | 
  | But point being: Its almost never Notion or tools at a similar
  | power level. Its simple shit. Physical journals, Apple Notes,
  | Google Keep, Google Docs, for the technically inclined just
  | markdown files.
 
  | charles_f wrote:
  | I went through some of the video, and I found it interesting
  | that most of the projects and task the presenter is showing are
  | about making videos. There's something borderline ironic in the
  | cyclicality of those youtube people focusing on "productivity"
  | mainly producing videos about how to be productive.
  | 
  | And yeah, the administrative burden of maintaining such a
  | system gives me pause ; the decorum of being formal gives the
  | impression of being productive, but are you really productive
  | when 25% of your time goes into the project management and time
  | you invest in setting it up?
 
  | fafqg wrote:
  | [flagged]
 
  | rchaud wrote:
  | It's also a very good example of why search engines suck today.
  | Everything is stuffed to the gills with right keywords, to get
  | the maximum number of clicks on the affiliate link that is
  | almost certainly embedded in the video description.
 
  | dmd wrote:
  | Over the last 20 years or so I've tried: index cards,
  | wunderlist, todo.txt, remember the milk, Asana, Any.do,
  | Evernote, Google Notebook, Simplenote, Trello, Workflowy,
  | Google Keep, Bear Notes, org-mode, and probably a dozen others.
  | Three years ago I started using Apple Notes and told my wife
  | "if you see me trying anything else at all, yell at me". I've
  | been pretty happy with it and am much more productive just
  | _using something_ rather than trying to find some magic new
  | tool.
 
    | creamyhorror wrote:
    | I started with text files in Notepad, then learnt from a
    | friend how to use Freemind to organise notes as hierarchical
    | mindmaps instead. It worked great, but search was broken (DFS
    | but only able to find results in one treepath?!). Years
    | passed, and I needed something to take notes with on mobile,
    | and Google Keep was the simplest fit. But Freemind and Keep
    | were both still too inconvenient on desktop, so at some point
    | I ended up back at text files. I skipped all other note-
    | taking apps over the years because I was convinced by people
    | here who said plaintext was best.
    | 
    | In the last two years, though, my current text file has
    | gotten too unwieldy to use. I have to do a bunch of searching
    | to get to sections (or remember their character-exact names).
    | Then last week, I lost a day's research notes because Google
    | Drive crashed and didn't sync until it was too late,
    | overwriting my work. Clearly, I'd outgrown my setup.
    | 
    | This last Sunday, I researched note-taking apps that don't
    | use proprietary formats or cloud storage: Obsidian? Foam?
    | Dendron? Logseq? I went with Obsidian, which while closed-
    | source, keeps everything in Markdown files, so I'll always be
    | able to use them in the future. (Logseq's different approach
    | also seemed promising, and it's open-source too; I'd
    | recommend trying that too.) I set up Obsidian-git for
    | reasonable syncing that wouldn't result my notes being
    | overwritten by accident. It all took a few hours, not endless
    | tinkering.
    | 
    | I've migrated a few note sections into it, done a few
    | diagrams and code blocks. Works well. I think I'm set for the
    | next 10 years.
 
      | eitland wrote:
      | I'm using Logseq for the same reasons.
      | 
      | .txt was never going to cut it for me, I always include
      | images like drawings, photos and screenshots etc.
      | 
      | Logseq is open source, reasonable file format, stable,
      | extensible, has a reasonable plan for funding itself
      | without lock ins, and, for me, is among the smoothest I
      | have used.
      | 
      | Notably missing from old OneNote 2016:
      | 
      | - shared notebooks w/indication of updates
      | 
      | - smoother syncing
      | 
      | Notable upgrades from OneNote 2016:
      | 
      | - still exists
      | 
      | - more structured (OneNote can out text and objects
      | everywhere)
      | 
      | - easily extensible
      | 
      | - queryable
      | 
      | - taggable (Tags in OneNote aren't really tags, only
      | glorified emojis)
      | 
      | - open source
      | 
      | As for the modern version of OneNote, I have given it up.
      | It almost isn't comparable.
 
        | creamyhorror wrote:
        | Yep, good reasons to use Logseq. I picked Obsidian over
        | Logseq because of the larger community, and because I
        | thought the former's UI looked suitable for hierarchical
        | notes in main categories, which is my usual approach. I
        | go to the right folder and append to the end of the
        | relevant note. I do like Logseq's more free-flowing,
        | block-tagging, hypertext-journal approach, but thought I
        | didn't really need the journal format for now.
        | 
        | If Logseq can also do hierarchical organising/browsing
        | with a simple sidebar interface, I think I'll give it a
        | go. Does it work well for that use case? What's nice is
        | that you can run both Logseq and Obsidian on the same
        | Markdown files, since they're (mostly compatible)
        | Markdown, so I'm not too worried about switching as
        | needed or even using both.
 
        | eitland wrote:
        | I'm not aware of any extension that gives you a
        | hierarchical sidebar on the left.
        | 
        | The right side however has a built in "Contents" page -
        | which tells you what it is for - only as far as I know
        | one has to fill it out oneselves.
        | 
        | That said, my goal was not to convert you or anyone. I am
        | a NetBeans user myself so I know a bit or two about
        | others telling me why I should switch to "clearly
        | superior alternatives" and I don't want to do that to
        | others ;-)
 
        | creamyhorror wrote:
        | Hah, appreciate it. Although I actually do like finding
        | out about better alternatives and weigh the benefits of
        | switching. It's good to know what people are happy about,
        | even if it isn't quite for oneself.
        | 
        | Sounds like Obsidian fits me better than Logseq for now
        | (for the inherent hierarchical organisation). Though one
        | of these days I'll try running Logseq on the same files
        | just for a different view and to try out journalling.
 
        | eitland wrote:
        | You maybe already know, but I write it anyway in case you
        | or someone else find it interesting:
        | 
        | AFAIK Logseq docs encourage new users to put everything
        | under Journal and just tag the relevant blocks. Multiple
        | hierarchical tags are possible, as are aliases, which
        | comes in handy, e.g. I have examples of good ux nested
        | three steps down from root, but in practice I write
        | [[Good UX]] and paste the screenshot and I am done, it
        | shows up at the right place, but is a lot more readable
        | in my journal. BTW, that alias could have been #GoodUX as
        | well and I would have gotten away with hashtag notation.)
 
        | mdhen wrote:
        | I've been using syncthing to sync logseq and it works
        | very well.
 
        | eitland wrote:
        | I'm considering it.
        | 
        | Currently I sponsor the project and use the built in sync
        | but it is a bit rough around the edges still and I have
        | seen a solution for automatic conflict resolution using
        | syncthing.
        | 
        | Do you use a script or something or are you just careful?
 
      | citizenkeen wrote:
      | Obsidian's ecosystem is incredible. You can make Obsidian a
      | queryable database, a longform book editor a la Scrivener,
      | or a gilded tabletop RPG campaign book.
      | 
      | Half of what makes Obsidian so great is that they've
      | encouraged modding so heavily.
 
      | protortyp wrote:
      | I can also recommend using Syncthing with obsidian. I use
      | it to synchronize my vault to all my devices. I also added
      | it to my existing Raspberry Pi server that's always online,
      | so I always have a distributor instance running and don't
      | need to worry about sync issues.
 
    | [deleted]
 
    | ravenstine wrote:
    | Been using Apple Notes for 8 years now and can't imagine
    | using any other tool at this point. Everything else is too
    | complicated and with distracting thrills, or is too
    | barebones. Notes is the perfect balance, and I like that the
    | notes can be totally offline.
    | 
    | The only thing that needs improvement is the search function.
    | 
    | EDIT: Another thing I really like about Notes is how notes
    | can be password protected, which includes full encryption,
    | and they can be unlocked with your fingerprint. If the user
    | doesn't interact with the app for a few minutes, the notes
    | automatically relock themselves. This is great for journaling
    | because I can be confident that the more candid thoughts I
    | express won't be accidentally read by anyone.
 
    | yamtaddle wrote:
    | I'd tried paper notebooks (including really tiny pocketable
    | ones) and Google Keep before picking up Apple Notes. Notes is
    | the only one I've not had to work at continuing to use--it's
    | just there, and I use it, and it works fine-to-great at
    | everything I use it for, and that's it.
    | 
    | If they ever turn it into some slow webshit thing, that may
    | set me looking for another solution, but until then, no
    | complaints on the note-taking front.
    | 
    | I barely even try to organize it, and just let search do its
    | thing. If I have some particular project (say, I'm DMing an
    | RPG and composing & organizing my world/encounter/session
    | stuff in there) I may try to keep all that in one
    | category/folder for easier browsing of multiple related notes
    | at once, but otherwise, I just dump stuff in and let search
    | bring it back for me if I need it.
 
    | foxandmouse wrote:
    | The latest version of apple notes is great, but drafts has
    | been the pkm tool I've been the happiest with.
 
    | harryf wrote:
    | In the end there's actually doing stuff. And there's putting
    | it on a TODO list. Both are types of activity but only one
    | actually got something real done
 
    | jwestbury wrote:
    | The tool you have is usually the most efficient. Sometimes
    | that's not true, but it's especially true if it's a tool you
    | have _everywhere_.
 
    | runjake wrote:
    | Is there an easy way to link other notes in Apple Notes?
    | 
    | I've used Obsidian for years now. Mainly because it's
    | frictionless, I can easily link notes, and just Markdown
    | files. I don't spend time looking for cool new plugins or new
    | methodologies, so I don't have those temptations. I wish
    | there were a better mobile app, though.
 
      | podviaznikov wrote:
      | made a tiny app to link notes in apple notes
      | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35698521.
      | 
      | mostly use it myself
 
        | runjake wrote:
        | I think your link is wrong. This link is to the post
        | itself?
 
      | waboremo wrote:
      | Easy way? No. You can create a weird workaround though, on
      | both mac and ios you share the link invite yourself, and
      | then in share options you copy the link and then paste it
      | in your note.
      | 
      | However, I don't really recommend this as now you have a
      | bunch of icloud links littering your notes and can become
      | confused easily trying to determine which notes are
      | actually shared and which ones were just shared with
      | yourself.
      | 
      | It's one of the biggest weaknesses of Apple Notes, and the
      | only reason I (tried) searching for alternatives.
 
    | jeron wrote:
    | You can recognize the productivity junkie by the amount of
    | tools they tell you they've tried
 
      | dmd wrote:
      | Hi, I'm Daniel, and I'm a todo list software addict
 
    | Jorslu wrote:
    | You have described the 2010's for me succinctly. Wow.
 
  | rs_rs_rs_rs_rs wrote:
  | >The 23 minute video linked on the "ultimate notion setup for
  | 2023" sounds like a great trap to fall into to not actually get
  | anything done. I get the impression some people spend more time
  | configuring these productivity tools instead of actually being
  | productive.
  | 
  | This is me with emacs.
 
  | ramraj07 wrote:
  | It's the 2020 equivalent of getting your perfect vim or eMacs
  | config maybe?
 
  | PascLeRasc wrote:
  | I see a therapist who specializes in OCD. They believe that the
  | mood journal trend around 2010-2015 led to a lot of people -
  | nearly all of their patients including me - having a compulsion
  | to write down and re-think/overvalue every passing thought.
 
  | splatzone wrote:
  | Relevant: Andy Matuschak: People who write extensively about
  | note-writing rarely have a serious context of use
  | 
  | https://notes.andymatuschak.org/zUMFE66dxeweppDvgbNAb5hukXzX...
 
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-04-25 23:00 UTC)