[HN Gopher] Stripe's real pricing: a primer
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Stripe's real pricing: a primer
 
Author : AnhTho_FR
Score  : 355 points
Date   : 2022-12-09 11:01 UTC (11 hours ago)
 
web link (github.com)
w3m dump (github.com)
 
| OmegaPG wrote:
| We are paying roughly 9% fees to stripe which includes currency
| conversion charges.
| 
| So if a customer pays us $100, we are getting $91 to our bank
| account which is absolutely ridiculous.
| 
| If anyone looking for next $10B-$100B business idea, work on
| making the transaction fees to 1% and you can take business from
| stripe and PayPal immediately.
| 
| Wise.com is doing this and I hope more such companies work on
| this.
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | nomilk wrote:
  | Could crypto help here, at least for customers who have some in
  | a wallet ready to use?
  | 
  | When I checked about 2 years ago, transferring bitcoin from one
  | wallet to another was negligibly cheap, although I think it
  | took about 20 minutes for the seller to be certain that the
  | bitcoin had been sent to them (too slow for most website
  | payments).
  | 
  | Curious to know if crypto could solve this problem though, if
  | not now, maybe in the future. If some of the 9% fees were
  | passed on to customers in the form of lower prices, it could be
  | quite appealing and give a price advantage (if only a few %)
  | over competitors.
 
    | withinboredom wrote:
    | Crypto is too volatile to really make day-to-day purchases
    | realistic.
 
      | mattdesl wrote:
      | USDC + L2 would be a suitable protocol for day-to-day
      | purchases and nearly 0% fee, at least for those already in
      | the system. But most of this tech is still basically in
      | beta.
 
  | searchableguy wrote:
  | Does stripe restrict payout currency to INR in India?
  | 
  | Can you add a bank account which can handle alternative
  | currency payout and let your bank handle do conversion?
 
    | merek wrote:
    | I'm not an expert, I think by default they payout in the
    | currency of the country that your business is located in.
    | 
    | In not sure about India, but in AU, we have the option to
    | receive USD payouts to USD accounts in Australian banks, so
    | you can avoid Stripe's conversion fees. But now you have USD
    | in an AU bank. What are your options? Convert to AUD at the
    | bank's terrible exchange rate. Or send the money to a US bank
    | (or Wise), paying horrendous international transfer fees.
    | 
    | I hope I'm missing something but I don't see this offering
    | from Stripe as being very useful.
 
      | etothepii wrote:
      | Not sure about wise's offering in AU but CA and UK you
      | could just receive the USD into your AU Wise account and
      | pay basically nothing <.5% for FX when compared to spot.
 
      | searchableguy wrote:
      | I don't know about AU banks but in India, most big banks
      | allow you to convert at 0.3-0.4% + FIRA and interbank
      | charge which is around $10. Not great but it's better than
      | stripe for bigger amount.
      | 
      | You can also get a multi currency bank account. There are
      | some options available to Indians which provide US based
      | ACH and IBAN. Be careful with FEMA compliance.
 
      | chinathrow wrote:
      | > In not sure about India, but in AU, we have the option to
      | receive USD payouts to USD accounts in Australian banks, so
      | you can avoid Stripe's conversion fees.
      | 
      | I tried that, didn't work. I opened a local USD account in
      | my non-US country and tried to add it for payout to Stripe.
      | Stripe only allows (at the time I checked, please correct
      | me if that has changed) US based USD accounts with ACH
      | routing information.
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | locallost wrote:
  | But wise.com is not a card processor?
 
    | OmegaPG wrote:
    | Yes. They only do bank to bank. But there is definitely a
    | business model here.
    | 
    | If you can offer subscription model and can do bank to bank
    | transfer with 0.5% fees, you will disrupt the whole
    | subscription industry relying on visa/Master card monopoly.
    | Not only this, banks also charge very high currency
    | conversion fees which you can disrupt.
    | 
    | You of course need to build lot of things from scratch but
    | with most of the banking now a days going online with new
    | APIs, it is possible.
 
      | locallost wrote:
      | Thanks, I don't doubt that, just wanted to know more
      | wise.com or if I misunderstood something.
      | 
      | You're right also, I live in Germany since a couple years
      | and and businesses taking money off your bank account is
      | definitely a thing here, I don't know for how long. But
      | mostly it's done by your electricity utility or by the tax
      | man, various fees e.g. the fee for public tv etc. I don't
      | know if there are costs to it, but probably yes.
 
    | AnhTho_FR wrote:
    | From my understanding, they are not. They provide _payment
    | cards_ but _don 't process payment by cards._
 
      | AnhTho_FR wrote:
      | I think what Merek meant is:
      | 
      | A workaround to Stripe fees for FX card payments would be
      | to have a set of Wise accounts to receive the money in the
      | local currency (one account or wallet for each currency)
      | _but_ then you 'd still need to pay Wise conversion fees,
      | once you want to gather the money from the different
      | wallets into a master account
 
  | Aeolun wrote:
  | Problem being that the credit card processor already takes 1%,
  | so that won't happen.
 
    | OmegaPG wrote:
    | Yes.
    | 
    | The disruption has to come from bypassing credit card
    | companies like Visa and Mastercard.
    | 
    | In India, almost every merchant is using UPI which saves them
    | fees of credit card processing.
    | 
    | The world banking is getting more advanced and technical and
    | I am sure payment gateways can bypass the credit card and
    | currency conversion fees with direct bank to bank transfer.
    | 
    | For larger Amount, we are asking our customers to use Wise
    | instead of stripe or PayPal as the saving for us is
    | significant.
 
  | koblas wrote:
  | Depending on where you're located you should potentially
  | consider a solution that looks more like Payment Processor ->
  | Hold in Currency -> Bulk Fx to Local currency. Typically
  | business level Fx processing is 2% - with 3% for credit card
  | fees.
  | 
  | At scale your Fx fees can be less than 2% of the conversion
  | amount, I know that at scale the fees can get down to <0.2% if
  | you're moving multiple millions (USD) in a month.
  | 
  | I know that both Adyem and Braintree will capture into local
  | currency, so you can avoid Fx fees by the payment processor
  | themselves.
 
    | whichquestion wrote:
    | Are there any companies arbitraging this % difference by
    | collating lots of different businesses transactions into
    | larger sums to then move into a particular currency for
    | business owners who transact in non local currencies?
 
      | [deleted]
 
      | withinboredom wrote:
      | I'm pretty sure Wise does something like this. Protip, you
      | can get a Wise business account and collect stripe payments
      | in a local currency, then bulk fx it to your local
      | currency.
      | 
      | Why Stripe isn't partnering with them, I don't know. My
      | bank partners with Wise to get the best exchange rate
      | possible (Bunq) when I'm out of the EU. It's fantastic.
 
| tiffanyh wrote:
| Most people also don't understand that with Stripe, you don't
| actually have your own merchant account (this is why they can
| setup your account so fast).
| 
| This can become hugely problematic as your business grows since
| you're a sub-account of Stripe business, making you beholden to
| their business practices and costs.
| 
| My comments aren't intended to sound negative. There's Pro's and
| Con's to different business models. Getting quick access to the
| robust tools Stripe offers comes at the cost of you giving up
| some control over your companies operations.
 
| heipei wrote:
| Been using Stripe for years but now I realise that I don't even
| know what plan I'm on and can't see what Stripe is charging me. I
| get a monthly "tax invoice" which includes all charges done
| through Stripe and comes out at ~ 2.9% of the volume, but I don't
| see any line items for Billing or anything else. Where do I find
| this stuff?
 
  | ezekg wrote:
  | Reports > Financial Reports > under "Fees" in the report.
 
    | heipei wrote:
    | Those are the same numbers as on the tax invoice, and in that
    | section it just says "Fees for all charges, including card
    | charges and other payment methods." Curious if that number
    | already includes charges for things like Subscriptions.
 
| bredren wrote:
| This came up two months ago, the pricing was described as
| "insidious." [1]
| 
| I replied that this description could be extended to include how
| it generated and associated unique customer IDs. The way it is
| built now-a-days it is trying to be the central key for SaaS user
| accounts. Effectively: store all your user data with us.
| 
| I thought it was some kind of oversight but it is most likely
| about lock in.
| 
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33269824
 
  | jmacd wrote:
  | I am the original commenter you had replied to.
  | 
  | I am actually working on https://tier.run in part to help
  | create a clean separation of interests between billing (and
  | entitlement, and metering, and feature flagging) systems and
  | how you store and access application and user data.
  | 
  | With Tier we have `tier whois` [1] which lets you get the
  | Stripe Customer ID based on your own userId.
  | 
  | I'd love your feedback if you think there are improvements we
  | could make.
  | 
  | 1: https://www.tier.run/docs/cli/whois/
 
| chasebank wrote:
| When did stripe start charging extra 0.8% for recurring billing?
| I remember building my first online business with stripe api
| right when it came out and recurring billing was a feature, not
| an add on.
 
  | corentin88 wrote:
  | In 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16766846
 
| ryanackley wrote:
| In the USA, there is a huge payment processing API industry.
| Stripe is a great company and it has this family of products that
| work great together but it has lots of competitors that have
| better pricing and better service.
| 
| I work in the industry for a payment processor. It's not a
| silicon valley startup (it's basically run by salespeople) but we
| have way better pricing and you can get someone on the phone if
| you have an issue.
| 
| Reading HN, you might think Stripe is the only option.
 
  | codegeek wrote:
  | Sure but the reason Stripe became Stripe is due to the fact
  | that they have an excellent API and dev experience. Most old
  | school processors are too difficult to setup and manage and
  | have horrendous APIs.e.g: authorize.net
  | 
  | Having said that, feel free to share your company becaise I m
  | always open to evaluatin for our company (low 7 figures ARR)
 
    | jrs235 wrote:
    | His email is in his profile.
 
    | nomilk wrote:
    | > the reason Stripe became Stripe is due to the fact that
    | they have an excellent API and dev experience.
    | 
    | That's their reputation, but it doesn't always stack up in
    | reality.
    | 
    | Recent example:
    | https://twitter.com/levelsio/status/1600316372344373249
    | 
    | Canonical HN example:
    | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30535572
    | 
    | The association of Stripe with simplicity and good dev
    | experience could be more due to Stripe's marketing/PR than
    | the views of devs who've used Stripe APIs, at least from the
    | few things I've read.
 
      | mgkimsal wrote:
      | >The association of Stripe with simplicity and good dev
      | experience could be more due to Stripe's marketing/PR ...
      | 
      | I don't think it's marketing/PR so much as a halo effect
      | and reputation from years ago. My experience with stripe 5
      | years ago was/is simpler and easier than it is looking at
      | it today. More products/services/options/requirements -
      | it's more complicated than it was years ago.
      | 
      | But looking at it for a project 5 years ago, it was
      | certainly simpler compared to authorize.net for what my
      | project needed. Just the UI alone to go in and manage/test
      | things was more straightforward and pleasant, even when I
      | hit issues and roadblocks. Authorize.net looked like it
      | hadn't changed much since 2005 or so when I'd looked at it
      | then. May be better now - haven't looked since 2017.
 
      | jobs_throwaway wrote:
      | my recent experience working with the Stripe API lines up
      | with this. Based on the reputation I was expecting a lot
      | less complexity and strange default behavior when it comes
      | to subscriptions/invoicing. Still a good dev experience,
      | but not the greatest, most straightforward API ever like
      | its reputation.
      | 
      | For example, Stripe applies discounts prior to proration.
      | So if a customer applies a $100 per month discount on a
      | $1000 subscription, and signs up halfway through the month,
      | they're charged (1000 - 100 * 0.5), not the more intuitive
      | ((1000 * 0.5) - 100). Nitpicky, but not what I expected.
 
      | acabal wrote:
      | Stripe did actually have a great API at one point, when
      | they just appeared. Their basics of charging a card and
      | managing subscriptions was incredibly simple and developer-
      | friendly compared to their competition at the time, like
      | Authorize.net or PayPal. I don't think PayPal even had a
      | real API back then - you had to use a `
` element with | hidden fields. | | Of course things change, and now Stripe's API has been | rewritten to extreme complexity with scattershot | documentation and unintuitive terminology. (I sell | products, but in the API I have to sell prices??) | danpalmer wrote: | A common problem with payment processors is international | support. Stripe isn't perfect by any means, but they support | much more than than most of the US focused competitors. | | As an example, a few years ago the EU brought in Strong | Customer Authentication (SCA). Stripe was one of the few | companies ready for this, being ready about a year before. I | used them at the time and adopted their SCA support and it | worked well. | | We also happened to be considering alternative payment | processors at the time. Braintree had some basic support for | it, not fully ready, and seemingly undocumented. Other | suppliers didn't even know about SCA despite notionally taking | GBP payments. | | Of course it's fine to only sell to the US market, but Stripe | is pretty good in many places and I suspect that's a | significant contributor to their popularity. | abuehrle wrote: | It's funny to observe the tide shift against Stripe on HN in | recent years. I think they are a phenomenal, once in a generation | company. Their APIs are beautiful (still, even though fewer | people agree these days) and the use cases that can be built upon | those APIs are endless and amazing. I always felt the pricing was | a steal for what the product delivered. | | Their support, on the other hand :(. ! Maybe it will get better | with advances in LLMs, because I'd be shocked if I was ever | talking to a human. | anonymouse008 wrote: | So does this effectively mean Apple charges 25.2% in the base | case, and potentially teens-low twenties in low price point apps | ($10 and below)? PayPal, BrainTree and others seem to also be in | this range - so backing out market payment rates, the App Store | is not as egregious? | jbverschoor wrote: | Yup. For that 30% you get everything. Payment processing, | reports, coverage in all countries, vat handling. | | But people like to bash Apple. | | Thy don't bash other platforms or channels which charge 30% or | even more | Mystery-Machine wrote: | So it's 30% charged by Apple with monopoly and no possibility | to use something else vs 8% charged by Stripe. And you can | also switch to anything else. Sure, it's more work than | Apple, but freedom is also more work than being told what to | do and how to live. | sasoon wrote: | Apple is not just charging for payment processing, you get | access to the App Store marketplace with more than billion | devices. With Stripe you only get payment processing. | jmacd wrote: | Stripe payment processing fee is 2.9% + C$0.30 | | For the other fees discussed in this article, you do get | additional capabilities. Distribution is not one of them, | but it's not an apples to apples comparison. | [deleted] | jbverschoor wrote: | But stripe doesn't give you a distribution channel or any | other type of platform to build on. And it doesn't give me | access to x billion people with payment details on file, | one double click away, without any fraud | calme_toi wrote: | Totally agree on diversifying payment solution part. | | But in terms of pricing, from what I have researched for my SaaS | website, Stripe is not bad at all. | | When it comes to choosing payment solutions, we need to consider | the reliability/quality. You might be able to pay x% less fees | with other options but 0.2% more of the down time will cost you | much more. | poxrud wrote: | My biggest issue is that they keep all the fees in case of a | refund. Sometimes customers just change their mind, and this will | cost you. It will cost you a lot if you're selling high value | items. | solokhind wrote: | Same. We're losing thousands of dollars because customers | change their mind or made a mistake in their purchase, mostly | because we're dealing with high value items. | waylandsmithers wrote: | As a developer it's easy to forget how insanely hard it can be to | run a business. After all the time, effort, and energy that goes | into actually making and selling something, you still have to go | through all this additional nonsense just to get the customer's | money from their hands into yours. | edwinwee wrote: | There is no company (that we're at least aware of) on Stripe that | is using this combo of Stripe products and paying the "total | cost" outlined in the post. Our pricing scales with the size (and | needs) of the business. If a business on Stripe is large enough | to use our highest billing tier, quotes, revenue recognition, and | data pipeline together, then Stripe would've bundled the products | together. (And then we charge for them at the end of the month | with a volume-based rate of bundled products + payments.) These | products are built for the companies who've asked us for these | enterprise features and aren't necessarily meant to be used one- | off, as the post implies. | xhevahir wrote: | Seems like "A Breakdown of Stripe's Pricing" would be a clearer | title. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Probably yes! Will think about this structure for next title, | thanks for the feedback! | ryanmccullagh wrote: | This is a native advertising piece. The author is associated with | a Stripe competitor. | joshe wrote: | It does seem that long term Europe should be segregated from the | www. | | For small entities Euro compliance is impossible. Say for | Michigan's largest Mustang parts website. Euro's often respond | this they would never bother and their targets are big tech, but | illegal and not prosecuted is not the same as legal. And it is | telling that the law doesn't say "this only applies to corps with | more the 100 million in Euro revenue". It applies to all | companies and _individuals_. It should be possible for such a | site to "opt out of Europe" and have safe harbor. | | And there is no way it makes sense for the whole world's web to | be regulated by a Euro court. There is no reason for a user in | the US to see GDPR banners. | | Maybe a great firewall to id Europe users, and if you use a vpn | to escape it US law doesn't recognize it as valid. | bastawhiz wrote: | I used to work at Stripe, specifically on Connect, and I want to | point out one thing that's not quite accurate: | | > and there's also a transaction fee of $0.25 + 0.25% (in | addition to the cost of Stripe Payments and other Stripe | products) | | This is not a per-transaction fee. That implies that the fee is | per-payment. This fee is per-payout, which is the ACH credit (or | debit rails transfer) to the account holder from their Stripe | balance. It's not uncommon for the payout schedule on accounts to | be at least weekly, so you have many payments worth of funds | batched together into a single payout. The per-payout fee of | $0.25 ends up being a lot smaller as a percentage in practice. | cutenewt wrote: | This is really clever marketing by Lago. Good inspiration for | other startups. | imchillyb wrote: | This is one of the _many_ reasons that banks will remain an | institution for a long time to come. Automatic Clearing House | (ACH, or Auto debit) comes with a host of consumer protections | that are completely lacking from payment processors. | | I wish legislators would force all payment processors to play by | the same book banks have to play by; the same consumer | protections. | smca_ wrote: | [I work at Stripe] As a practical matter, this guide is somewhat | misleading in the sense that it very substantially overestimates | what a typical B2B SaaS business pays for Stripe. | | For example: | | * Cards pricing. The guide assumes a B2B SaaS business accepts | 100% of payments via cards. B2B SaaS businesses on Stripe tend to | encourage payments via bank transfers and other lower-cost | payment method, especially for their biggest customers, and we | try to make it as easy as possible for businesses to do this. | Bank transfers are priced at 0.8% in the US. The guide states | that "additional fees apply for bank transfers, additional | payment methods", which is not true. We encourage users to use | alternative payment methods for this reason. | | * Stripe Tax. The 0.5% per transaction cost is incurred only in | jurisdictions where the business is obligated to collect taxes. | For US-based businesses, this generally represents a very small | fraction of total payment volume. (And, of course, the tax | collection itself is mandatory, and so some tax provider or | calculation engine presumably has to be paid for.) | | * Stripe Data Pipeline. Including this as a default cost is | misleading. It isn't. While we think it's a great product | (especially if you have a sophisticated ETL pipeline), most | Stripe users don't find themselves needing it. | | More broadly, I think it's important for onlookers to know that | OP is the founder of a business that runs on Stripe and positions | itself as an alternative to Stripe Billing. They seem to be | trying to write deliberately-provocative posts to go viral, as | described in this tweet: | https://twitter.com/byAnhtho/status/1601197512227885056. | Competition is good, and anyone is of course very welcome to | analyze Stripe's pricing. But, in the spirit of transparency, | we'd welcome a slightly more realistic analysis. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Hi Sam, | | OP here. I appreciate the inputs, we're big fans of Stripe at | Lago. We operate in the billing space, and are alternatives to | home-grown billing systems, Chargebee, Recurly, etc. and Stripe | Billing. | | 1/ Some users use Lago as a complement of Stripe Billing, or | don't even consider Stripe Billing, and we built a native | integration with Stripe payments. | | Out of transparency, the first lines we wrote in this post | stated that: "Disclaimer: This analysis is based on Stripe's | public pricing as of July 21, 2022. Some merchants may be able | to negotiate fees or benefit from grandfathered plans. Lago | partners with 'Stripe Payments' and can be used as a complement | or replacement of 'Stripe Billing'." | | 2/ > 'write deliberately-provocative posts to go viral' | | Thanks for quoting my tweet. I actually shared 2 old articles I | wrote in 2021 this week, that made the front page of HN, | unrelated to Fintech: | | - One on my personal blog sharing what I learnt about press | relations, main message being 'don't waste money on an agency | if you're early stage' because I've seen this happen too often, | and too many founders asked me the same questions about this | topic [1] I was actually surprised it was read, as HN is known | for being more 'engineering oriented' than 'marketing | oriented'. - Another one about 'scouts' not being necessarily a | good thing for founders, with Sifted (TC for EU) which is a | position I stand for as a founder and as an investor, and I | think Europe should mature towards this topic [2] | | The TLDR is: I've been writing about a wide range of topics for | a long time, things I like to share, things I stand for and | want to have an impact on and was grateful it resonated within | my community. Btw I think the HN ring vote is pretty strong, | and HN community very 'fierce' (at times), so I don't think we | could have got attention by just 'clickbaiting' and attempting | to go viral. | | Like any startup, we're excited to share our vision of the | world, and this is why we're writing. | | Lastly, here are two other examples of content that were | intended to spark a discussion in our community (and it did) | and don't bring much to Lago as a business: | | a/ What not to say to someone who has just been laid off [3] I | wrote it after my partner was laid off and too many people | around him just did not know what to say, which amplified the | 'grief'. It reminded me of my personal history of grief, and | wrote the post. I received dozens of messages of people who | have been laid off recently, or whose friend/closed ones had | been fired. Founders reached out to say they would share it | with their team (it's not an easy topic to discuss). | | b/ I recently shared my thought process about moving to the US | after YC, as it's a recurring question we have as YC founders | based in Europe. This sparked a lot of discussions and helped | me iterate on how I approach the question, in a scalable way. I | believe other founders learned things by the discussion it | sparked, some founders reached out to help me with the US visa | etc. Feel free to read it here [4]. Took me some time to write | it, but the main ROI was how I've been able to connect with | other founders, at the same stage, or 5 steps ahead, and learn | from them. And, based on the comments/discussions, I believe | other founders in the same situation benefited from this too. | | My point is: not all content is written in an attempt to go | viral, but I just write about what I believe brings value, and | it happens to go viral (whatever you mean by that) when it does | have an impact. Regarding my tweet, I think a lot of people | wonder how to approach HN, and make a lot of rookie mistakes, | and I could also write about what I've learned. This would (if | I write it successfully) in fine help having better content on | HN. | | YC says 'build something people want', I also happen to | (occasionally) write things people want. And there's no better | gift for a writer. | | [1] https://anhtho.substack.com/p/pr-for-startups-is-it-only- | for... [2] https://sifted.eu/articles/vc-scout-programme- | problems/ [3] https://sifted.eu/articles/what-not-to-say- | layoff/ [4] https://github.com/getlago/lago/wiki/Moving-to-the- | US-after-... | tyre wrote: | I think the point here is that this post _was_ optimized to | try to go viral. Most startups won't have 4% as a minimum | revenue cost. | | For example, you chose the most expensive Billing plan | (Scale), which includes things startups don't need. Similarly | assuming the most pessimistic payment mix where everyone is | using international cards along with currency conversion, | which will never be true. Similarly adding data pipeline. | | It's not "Stripe's real pricing", as you're no doubt aware. | That's where it turns from informative to marketing. | | If there's a way that Lago, or any other Stripe competitor | for any product, cuts down on fees, that's fantastic. There | are definitely ways to beat Stripe's fees on payments, for | example, though they're as difficult as the are | transformative. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | The point was showing how the pricing and costs adds up. | | A lot of founders don't get what products they use at | Stripe and that the cost adds up as a % of revenue. | | % of revenue makes sense for payment processing, does it | really make sense for SaaS products (billing, tax?) ? | What's the rationale? | | About offering alternatives for fintech software (such as | billing, tax), with a pricing that does not take a cut on | revenue, this is exactly what we are building. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Also the point of my initial comment was that even if you | consider this post optimised for vitality, pointing that | we are optimising on only that in our content seemed a | bit extreme, hence the examples. | hitekker wrote: | gamblor956 wrote: | _Stripe Tax. The 0.5% per transaction cost is incurred only in | jurisdictions where the business is obligated to collect taxes. | For US-based businesses, this generally represents a very small | fraction of total payment volume. (And, of course, the tax | collection itself is mandatory, and so some tax provider or | calculation engine presumably has to be paid for.)_ | | That's obscenely high compared to what we pay one of your | competitors for _more_ functionality than what Stripe Tax | provides. | | Your customers are easily pay a 100% premium over alternatives | just to keep everything within Stripe. | mynameisvlad wrote: | > For US-based businesses, this generally represents a very | small fraction of total payment volume. | | Didn't "S Dakota vs Wayfair" require sellers to charge | interstate tax regardless of physical presence in the state? | | I don't see how it would be a small fraction given that. | mperham wrote: | Sort of. You need to do a minimum of business in the state, | usually $100,000/yr or 200 transactions. I don't have enough | customers in Utah to require tax payments. | mynameisvlad wrote: | That's fair. I'm guessing it's also state-dependent with | each state having its own rules. | | I still would disagree on it being framed as "a very small | fraction" of payments even given those stipulations. | | I would say, from the consumer end, it's been the exception | rather than the rule that I don't have to pay WA sales tax. | smca_ wrote: | To clarify, Stripe Tax is our product that helps you | _automatically_ calculate taxes. | | If you'd like to do it yourself, you can manually define | rates at no cost: | https://stripe.com/docs/billing/taxes/tax-rates. | hermitcrab wrote: | I use a 'full-service' payment provider. I send the | customer to their shopping cart page. The customer buys | the software license from them. And they buy the license | from me. They are the 'merchant of note' and collect and | remit the VAT/sales tax. They pay me once a month, minus | fees. | | So how does Stripe tax work? Can Stripe function as the | 'merchant of note'? If I am based in the UK and selling | to someone in the UK, Germany or the US, will it collect | and remit the taxes for me? Or just tell me how much I | owe? | mynameisvlad wrote: | Who said anything different or implied they didn't | understand this? | | Nobody is arguing that Stripe Tax is not a valuable | product, or that the tax landscape is not extremely | complicated and worth 0.5% of a transaction. | | I am, explicitly, saying that your framing as taxed | transactions being "a very small fraction" of US | transactions seems false. You are making it sound like | the Stripe Tax surcharge will generally speaking not | apply to a business, and therefore shouldn't be used when | calculating the amount your company charges. | | Do you have anything to back up this claim? | motoxpro wrote: | From google: | | " Understanding the state sales tax rules for your SaaS | business is difficult due to the many different | definitions and categorizations. SaaS for personal use is | taxable in Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts. SaaS for | business use is taxable in Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio." | | Meaning that you don't have to charge tax in the majority | of states. Meaning that it can be negligible. IANAL | khuey wrote: | That's not a complete list (e.g. SaaS is taxed in New | York) but there are also large states where it is not | taxed (e.g. California). | mynameisvlad wrote: | From TaxJar, Stripe's own subsidiary, and also the first | result on Google: | | > Alabama - SaaS is considered a taxable service. | Computer software is tangible personal property. (Source) | | > Alaska - SaaS is taxable in Alaska. (Source) | | > Arizona - SaaS is taxable in Arizona. (Source) | | > Connecticut - SaaS is taxable in Connecticut. SaaS for | personal use is taxed at the full state rate, but SaaS | for business use is only taxed at the rate of 1%. | (Source) | | > Hawaii - SaaS (and computer services) is taxable in | Hawaii. Hawaii's general excise tax applies to every good | and service not tax exempt. (Source) | | > Iowa - SaaS is taxable, except when being used for | business purposes, then it is exempt. (Source) | | > Louisiana - SaaS is taxable. (Source) | | > Massachusetts - SaaS and cloud computing are taxable in | Massachusetts. (Source) | | > New Mexico - SaaS is taxable in New Mexico. (Source) | | > New York - SaaS is taxable in New York. (Source) | | > Ohio - SaaS is taxable for business use in Ohio and | non-taxable for personal use. (Source) | | > Pennsylvania - SaaS is taxable in Pennsylvania. | (Source) | | > Rhode Island - SaaS is taxable in Rhode Island. | (Source) | | > South Carolina - SaaS is considered a taxable service | in South Carolina, as are other charges to access a | website. (Source) | | > South Dakota - SaaS is considered a taxable service in | South Dakota, as are other charges to access software. | (Source) | | > Tennessee - SaaS is taxable in Tennessee. (Source) | | > Texas - SaaS is considered part of a data processing | service in Texas and is 80% taxable and 20% exempt from | sales tax. (Source) | | > Utah - SaaS is taxable in Utah. (Source) | | > Washington - SaaS is taxable in Washington since all | software, delivered by whatever means, is considered | taxable in the state. (Source) | | > Washington D.C. - SaaS is considered a taxable service | in Washington D.C. (Source) | | > West Virginia - SaaS is considered a taxable service in | West Virginia. (Source) | | https://www.taxjar.com/sales-tax/saas-sales-tax | | SaaS is also far from the only industry Stripe serves. | But even if it were, close to half the states require | taxes on it in some way, shape or form. Meaning it's not | nearly as negligible as you're making it seem. | | I also want to reiterate the bar is "very small fraction | of total payment volume". _Very small_ really implies | single or low double digit percentage. While some of the | biggest states are missing, you still have around 40% of | the population represented in those states. It seems very | unlikely, even with tech 's concentration in California, | that 40% of the population results in "very small | fraction of total payment volume". | [deleted] | s17n wrote: | Not exactly on topic but Lago has been killing it when it comes | to making the HN front page, nice job. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Thanks | stevehawk wrote: | I know that I started and _shutdown_ a company through Stripe | Atlas a year and a half ago and they 're still charging me | recurring fees for it. I'm not convinced that Atlas was ever | fully thought out on their end and I regret using it. | mkaic wrote: | Fellow Stripe Atlas-er here. I have no experience with | corporate _anything_ and started my C Corp because I won the | Pioneer Tournament and they said I had to to give them a 1% | SAFE to claim my winnings, even though I 'd made it clear I did | not intend to try to monetize my project at all. The company | has literally done zero things since inception except cost me | money for my registered agent, Delaware corporation tax, and | having to pay someone to file taxes for $0 of income because I | am too terrified of the tax legal system to do it myself. | | If you don't mind me asking, what was your process for | dissolving the corporation? I'd love to shut down mine but last | time I looked it up I got bogged down in all the legalese about | Notices of Dissolution and Board Approval and all that jazz. | edwinwee wrote: | There's no charge to use Stripe after the $500 Atlas fee to | form a company. What fees are you seeing? If you've maintained | a presence in Delaware, perhaps you're still paying for your | registered agent? (You can also email me at edwin@stripe.com | and we can look into this.) | Aeolun wrote: | Why are they charging you for something that doesn't exist? Is | it a mistake on their end? | lvl102 wrote: | Yeah Stripe is a joke considering its size. I much rather use | Square which is saying a lot because that is also a poorly run | company. Fintech space is a big joke. They were selling more | fluid payment platforms with less fees/cost to consumers. | Instead all-in prices have actually gone up. | mschuster91 wrote: | > Fintech space is a big joke. | | Almost as if all the "meatspace banking" regulations had | their purpose, born out of decades of experience with the | many, MANY, M A N Y weird edge cases that crop up sooner or | later. | | Not to say that the meatspace regulations and practices are | fine (from an European POV, the fact y'all still use literal | paper cheques instead of bank transfers and credit cards | instead of direct debit because consumer protection is way | easier on CCs), but still... it's amazing none of the | fintechs ever really got hit hard by regulation agencies | despite the continuous complaints. | gilrain wrote: | As a retail customer, there are three payment processors which I | notice "convert" me into a sale more often purely because I'm | confident the process will be fast, safe, convenient, and | familiar: Apple Pay, Stripe, and Square. | | I would have been surprised to learn that they _aren't_ priced at | a premium on the back end, because they certainly feel better and | more trustworthy. | apankrat wrote: | As a retail online vendor - PayPal is the fourth. | | Did an AB test a while back and mere presence of the PayPal | option boosts sales through all other options _plus_ generates | extra sales through PayPal itself. Not something that I was | expecting at all, but the confidence level was over 99%. | noasaservice wrote: | What I would love is a USPS money solution. Extremely low fees, | just works, hooked up with USPS. Fraud would be under bank AND | mail fraud. | | All these companies in this realm are vultures. They add nothing | - they just take their cut to do something that should be easy. | dkyc wrote: | Working at a company that is currently making this decision, I | appreciate the blog post. That being said, I absolutely don't see | how they arrive at their numbers. They state that SaaS founders | routinely pay "4-8% of revenue" to stripe. Then their own | calculation ends up at 4.2% of revenue using a combination of | _all_ Stripe services possible (Billing, Payments, Tax, Data | Pipeline). Where are the other ~4% supposed to come from? | | If anything, the calculation is overstating the realistically | expected cost in a few ways: | | - Particularly B2B SaaS will likely have some % of invoice/bank | transfer payment. Assuming 100% payment via credit card is a | 'worst-case' assessment. | | - Even given that, the bulk of the cost are credit card | processing fees, which you would pay either way. Maybe not | exactly at stripe's rate, but something similar. | | - _Stripe Tax_ for example doesn 't charge 0.5% of revenue flat. | It only charges for revenue _where you're registered to collect | taxes_ , which for an international business will be far from | every transaction (depends on locality & customer base, of | course). In addition to that, the pricing drops to 0.4% if you | process more than $50k per month. | | All in all, I appreciate the effort, but given that Lago is a | stripe competitor, this calculation dressed up as a 'neutral | assessment' on Github seems disingenuous and makes me trust them | less. | croes wrote: | They state that SaaS founders said it's 4-8%. It's not their | statement but the SaaS founders | | >We asked this question to dozens of SaaS founders and none of | them was able to provide a precise figure. Answers ranged from | 4 to 8% of their revenue. | dkyc wrote: | Well, for reasons stated I don't believe it was a fair and | representative sample then, and that 4% is closer to the | upper bound than the lower. Also no idea how "no one was able | to give a precise figure" - go into stripe dashboard, open | most recent invoice, divide amount paid through payments | processed (which are both stated right there on the invoice!) | | I'm a B2B SaaS founder and paid 2.7% to stripe last month. | OP, feel free to update post with new lower bound. | pattrn wrote: | I'm a B2C SAAS founder and paid 7.1% to Stripe last month. | notatoad wrote: | >this calculation dressed up as a 'neutral assessment' on | Github seems disingenuous and makes me trust them less | | agreed. they have a corporate blog on their site, so there's no | reason that advertorial content like this couldn't be posted | there. posting on github just seems like a dirty trick to add | authority to marketing content. and it feels especially dirty | because they don't share their own pricing to compare it to. | that_guy_iain wrote: | Why would GitHub add authority? It only really helps when | your target audience is technical. But choosing payment | providers is not a technical decision for lots of companies. | lolinder wrote: | Stripe's initial success was largely driven by technical | people pushing for it because of how easy their API was. | Don't underestimate the impact of technical leadership on | decisions like this: | | > "For us it was quite visceral: these products are not | serving the needs of the customers, so let's build | something better," John Collison argues. "In old-fashioned | legacy companies it's the CFO choosing the payments system. | They think all systems are alike, so they just sort the | bids from suppliers. But if ... you have a two-person team, | both of you writing relatively complex code and solving | complex infrastructural problem, you need a simple payments | API that - once installed - doesn't keep changing." | | > ... The company grew swiftly, driven largely by word-of- | mouth between developers. | | https://www.wired.co.uk/article/stripe-payments-apple- | amazon... | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: | I might understand the reasoning that it could have reduced | authority if hosted on their blog. Their branding makes | them more recognizable, which makes them more likely to be | noticed as a competitor, which removes neutrality. | notatoad wrote: | elsewhere in this thread, there's a tweet where OP is | bragging about getting three articles onto the front page | of HN this week. Whatever this audience is, we are | apparently the target. | JohnBooty wrote: | Why would GitHub add authority? | | Well, there's no real reason it would. But I'll admit: it | did fool me into thinking it was some neutral source. | | (To be clear, I was just casually browsing HN on a work | break, not actually shopping for a payment solution and | reading with diligence) | satvikpendem wrote: | > _It only really helps when your target audience is | technical._ | | Their product is an "Open Source Metering & Usage-Based | Billing" solution on that Github repo, so it does seem like | they're using posts on Github to drive people to use their | product. | plantain wrote: | Forced currency conversion. International fees versus local. | Low average charge (so the per tx fee is more significant) | ecedeno wrote: | "+33c per transaction" | | For a B2B SaaS this likely represents a minuscule percentage of | the revenue. For a $5/month subscription, this fee alone is | more than 6% | dkyc wrote: | You are right, and I see how that would push up the bill as % | of revenue. | | That being said, this has nothing to do with stripe's | software platform which this article focuses on, and all to | do with credit card payment fees. Braintree charges "2.59% + | $.49 per transaction". PayPal charges "3.49% + $.49 per | transaction". Square payments charges "2.9% + $.30 per | transaction". | GeneralTspoon wrote: | PayPal offers a micropayments option (5% + $0.05) - which | reduces overall cost for businesses where the fixed fee | eats a major part of their revenue. | SXX wrote: | Is PayPal work for small SaaS at all especially one with | micropayments? I fear such business would generate more | refunds than usually and PayPal is much worse when it's | come to blocking your account and freezing your funds. | kuschku wrote: | Girocard (in person) is 0.25%. GiroPay is 0.09EUR per | transaction, no matter how large. PayDirekt is 0.35EUR per | transaction, no matter how large. SEPA Debit is about | 0.10EUR as well. | | Why are US-based payment services so fucking expensive? | mardifoufs wrote: | Debit card transactions are basically free in the US too. | astura wrote: | The EU has a cap on interchange fees, by law. The US has | no such law, so they charge more, because they can. | | Some of the interchange fees are paid back to the | customer in the form of cash back and other perks and | rewards. | blntechie wrote: | I assume because the US credit card customers are | obsessed with reward points and miles and it need to be | paid by someone. It's usually the merchants through high | MDR. The merchants pass on the costs to the card | customers or debit card/cash payers. | SeripisChad wrote: | Prior to those gimmicks the rates where higher than now. | I hoped Google to follow through with their pricing cuts, | but yielded rather quickly. | fredophile wrote: | As a consumer in the US I always pay with a credit card | when I can. The businesses have already baked the credit | card fees into their pricing so I might as well get a few | percent back from my card plus the extra purchase | protection, etc. | dylan604 wrote: | There are companies that offer lower prices when paying | cash/debit specifically to only charge the credit card | fees to those using credit cards. | | It used to be a big thing in the US at gas stations where | they advertised the 2 different prices. I don't know the | details, but at some point that stopped happening. I was | under the impression some rule change, but it is making a | come back. I don't know if some consumer protection laws | were made the revoked or whatnot, but it is possible to | not have to automatically be charged for credit card fees | if you're not using credit. | jonasdegendt wrote: | > It used to be a big thing in the US at gas stations | | Hah, as a European that lived in California for a while | this always seemed so odd to me. I just dug up a picture | of my car that I took at a gas station, and there's | prices in the background: Cash $2.94, Credit $3.11, for | regular gas, and the date on the picture is the 4th of | July, 2017. That's quite the difference but roughly in | line with credit card fees. | | It makes sense that gas stations would do this, it's a | pretty slim margin business. | ghaff wrote: | You still sometimes see this. My understanding is that | it's usually against merchant credit card contracts | however. You also used to see cash only stations but | that's almost certainly vanishingly rare these days. | dylan604 wrote: | based on experiences with vending machines, could you | imagine the nightmare of cash only pay-at-the-pump? | we'd have gas lines like the 70s not because of | shortages, but just from people trying to pull their | bills along the corner of the pump to flatten them out. | mixmastamyk wrote: | Doesn't preclude a cashier that typically still exists. | Also Arco had cash machines up until a few years ago and | I never encountered a line at one. | dylan604 wrote: | psst, look up. over your head was a joke. nothing to be | taken seriously. we have cashierless grocery stores, | hardware stores, and every other store. why would you | think a late night 24/7 gas station wouldn't go | cashierless too? | mixmastamyk wrote: | Need to work on your jokes. ;) The reason is that a | significant amount of the profit is in the convenience | store. Also security reasons... someone to call the | police. | dylan604 wrote: | have you honestly never seen a cashierless gas station? | you suggest that convenience store is profit center, but | as you say, those have to be staffed. what do the numbers | look like if it's just gas with cashless pumps and no | staff? then, raise the rates of the fuel because | "shortages", and I can see it being profitable for less | headache. i can think of at least 3 of these stations | within 20 miles of me. potentially faster turnover as you | don't have people parking at the pump while they spend 15 | mins inside. there's a lot of interesting positive | aspects to this, and it seems that more are willing to | try it. | slashink wrote: | Credit card reward systems & points are not free. Comes | at the cost of higher transaction fees that eventually | get passed on to the customer. | | I've found these schemes much less prevalent in Europe | (with the exception of AMEX, but half of the vendors in | Europe seems to not accept that anyway). | | On top of that, in the EU, interchange fees are capped to | 0.3% of the transaction for credit cards and to 0.2% for | debit cards. This prevents it from becoming the points | hell of the US market. | kuschku wrote: | Girocard was actually still significantly cheaper than | the capped credit and debit cards (0.125% end-to-end cost | (!)), and yet now we're seeing banks drop it because | MasterCard has threatened to stop business with any bank | that doesn't drop it. | | IMO, the EU should either break up MasterCard & VISA, | nationalize them, or build their own system (maybe unify | Girocard, Dankort, etc?) and make that mandatory. | | The difference between the MasterCard & VISA fees and | e.g. Girocard fees is almost 2%. That's equivalent to | paying an additional 2% tax on everything. | | With that amount of money we could make all transit in | the EU entirely free of charge and expand it quite a bit, | yet all it's doing right now is make some rich assholes | even richer. | ghaff wrote: | Although I'm pretty sure most of the rewards go to people | willing to pay for premium cards because they make a lot | of transactions. Do the people with free credit cards | subsidize them? Maybe but it's not obvious. Of course, | the people with the biggest reward cards are probably not | paying much interest or late fees either. | NavinF wrote: | > Do the people with free credit cards subsidize them? | | Depends on the card. Interchange fees are much lower for | basic cards so if you get at least 2% cashback, that's | break-even. Of course cards with annual fees get a lot | more rewards in the form of transferable airline points | and have much higher interchange fees to cover that. | iancarroll wrote: | The interchange fee differences between credit card types | are not very high, usually around 0.5%. You can see the | public Visa interchange rates at https://usa.visa.com/con | tent/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/vis.... Credit card | companies play a lot of games with this too and will | "upgrade" your card type if they think it's worth it, | even if you don't make any changes. | | The biggest variances involve non-exempt (Durbin | amendment) debit cards. | NavinF wrote: | Ah I thought the interchange rates would be 1% higher for | the best cards, not 0.5% higher | | I guess the lowest tier cards really do subsidize the | rest. | chinathrow wrote: | > Credit card reward systems & points are not free. | | I always treat them as a system for the corruption of | myself. They pay me to use their card (for a payment!!!) | and therefore I get corrupted and I become part of the | problem. | bel_marinaio wrote: | Why are so many things better in the EU? | wpietri wrote: | A historian, Walter McDougall, author of the excellent | "Let the Sea Make a Noise", was planning to write a | history of America around the duality of the word | "hustle", which can mean both "energetic, go get 'em | attitude" and "scam". In America we are very accepting of | anti-social or exploitative behavior as long as | somebody's getting rich. | | I also think a lot about the term "puffery", which in | American law is when companies make false claims about a | product, but in a fashion where everybody is assumed to | know that they're lying, which makes it ok: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery | | It really says something to me that we supposedly have | such a deep expectation of commercial lies that it's | acceptable. I think in a healthier country someone would | say, "Wait, what if they just didn't lie?" | jhdhjdkjdhcfnj wrote: | it's a way to exhert maximum control with minimal effort | (in this case, talking about flow of capital) | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_(sociology) | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Haha EU isn't perfect, but from a super high-level and | personal point of view (and there are millions of nuances | within Europe), but generally there's more emphasis on | the common good as a society, than what I've seen in the | US | | (I grew up in France but part of my family lives in the | US). | nightpool wrote: | All of the services you mentioned are debit cards, not | credit cards. US debit cards are basically free as well, | it's just that nobody uses them. | dylan604 wrote: | >it's just that nobody uses them. | | that's a bold claim. not everyone bows down to the uber | robber barons of the credit companies. i have no credit | cards and am surviving life just fine thank you very | much. i know i'm not alone. | optymizer wrote: | this discussion would be more productive with some data: | | * 83% of adults have at least one credit card | | * 41% adults actually used a credit card in 2020 | | https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2021-economic | -we... | ivalm wrote: | 41% had credit card debt, presumably a larger amount used | them. | ghaff wrote: | Right. Unpaid balance over at least one month. Although | some people probably just have a credit card for | emergency purposes, I assume that most people who have a | credit card do use it over the course of a year. | ivalm wrote: | absolutely, just replying to the poster saying that only | 41% used a credit card, which would imply majority of | americans don't. | dylan604 wrote: | There's a bit of HN bias here. Just thinking of the lower | income or non-white side of the country. So many people | don't even have a checking account (4.5% households or | 5.9million )[0] let alone a debit card. There's no way | they have credit cards. | | While it may be a low percentage number, 5-7million | people is not "nobody". Question I would stipulate would | be adults vs minors in that number. | | [0]https://news.yahoo.com/number-americans-without-bank- | account... (households translates to how many people?) [1 | ]https://www.gao.gov/blog/more-7-million-u.-s.-households | -hav... (7.1million from April 2022) | philsnow wrote: | > it's just that nobody uses [debit cards] | | Nobody in your bubble. Just off the top of my head I know | a couple people who don't have a single credit card, one | is mid-50s, one just turned 70. | | > US debit cards are basically free | | I agree that they're basically free to process payments | from, but there are invisible costs to the cardholder | associated with using them vs credit cards (less buyer | protection, overdraft storms if you accidentally zero | your account). | | I'm not aware of any downsides of keeping at least one or | two credit cards, except for the potential to put oneself | in debt. Unfortunately for some people, keeping a credit | card is untenable because they're unable to stop | themselves from using them. | nightpool wrote: | Actually, I don't even have a credit card myself. My | comment was about observing the general behavior of | businesses I frequent--only one (a cost-conscious grocery | store) won't take credit cards. I've just never needed to | go through the hassle of getting one, myself. | | Absolutely agree re: cardholder costs. In addition it | what you said about fees and liability (although I'm | lucky to have a bank that doesn't charge overdraft fees), | I'm probably leaving a fair bit of money on the table | that I could be making back up with credit card rewards / | incentives if I wanted to spend the time on it. My | comment was only about costs to the merchant, since | that's what GP was talking about. | ericd wrote: | This is one of the major reasons I think that the lightning | network backed by bitcoin could actually be useful, vs the | totally useless waste of energy that everyone on here seems | to believe it is - the fees are basically a tiny fraction | of a cent, and so it could make it economically viable to | have payments <$1, which currently isn't really the case | with the credit card networks. | ivalm wrote: | Maybe, but really it would just push credit cards to be | cheaper. Fundamentally credit card processing tech is | cheaper than lightning network (in terms of compute). | Pushing CC to be cheaper ofc is a good in and of itself. | Dand313 wrote: | I think they are comparing to MoRs like fastspring or | paddle where the % is higher? | newaccount74 wrote: | It's important to consider when you compare with App Stores | or resellers that charge a flat fee of 15%-30%. | | Another important factor that is missing is currency | exchange rates. I don't know how Stripe handles them, but | they always resulted in mysteriously missing money in my | experience. | withinboredom wrote: | Sign you business up for something like Wise and take the | money in its original form without conversion fees. In my | experience, wiring up webhooks + API on wise to automate | back to your own currency is less expensive than stripe. | YMMV | Terretta wrote: | It would be good if people remembered these piecemeal costs | when comparing to Google Play or Apple App Store particular | in year 2+ of a subscription user. | | At that point, the mobile app store offering is effectively | costing well under 10%. | deegles wrote: | It can be up to 30% if they freeze your account for "suspicious | activity." This is currently happening to someone I know who's | had all of their November sales frozen. They say Stripe _might_ | return 70% of the funds... in February. They 're trying to | reach a human but no luck so far. | Alupis wrote: | > This is currently happening to someone I know who's had all | of their November sales frozen | | Why on earth is this person not sweeping nightly into their | business bank account? Never leave money in your processor | account... they are not your bank! | | This is the same stuff people complain about with PayPal - | failing to realize this scenario (to this extent where it's | threatening your business) is almost entirely the business | operator's fault due to a severe lack of understanding of how | to use a processor. | | My guess is this person's processor account went from small | benign numbers and then suddenly had a surge of business | (possibly seasonal). This sudden increase in volume can (and | will) trigger anti-fraud audits from your processor if you do | not already have a well established history with them. You go | through it, and move on. Generally it's not an issue if you | sweep nightly! | | Spread the word - your payment processor is _not_ your bank. | Sweep nightly, it 's almost always a free service they offer. | rstupek wrote: | Stripe auto sweeps but not nightly. Not sure you have any | control over when they sweep funds over | Alupis wrote: | Stripe does support nightly sweeps, and according to | their documentation[1] it's the default when you enable | sweeping. | | [1] https://support.stripe.com/questions/understanding- | daily-aut... | chinathrow wrote: | I can set daily/weekly or monthly payouts just fine. | satvikpendem wrote: | > _Never leave money in your processor account... they are | not your bank!_ | | Reminds me of crypto exchanges too. Don't leave money in an | exchange, use it to, well, _exchange_ money, then move it | to your bank account or wallet. | aliswe wrote: | Are you serious? This is very concerning | capableweb wrote: | Absolutely, payment providers block/suspend accounts left | and right, and you're out of luck to find any humans to | talk to. If you manage to find a human, 99% chance is that | it triggered something in their "anti fraud" systems and | then they'll simply state "We can't tell you why, and we | can't unsuspend your account, sorry". | | Best course of action I've found, is to build your initial | MVP with one payment provider but as soon as you've | validated there is a market and before you move on with | other features, add a backup provider you can switch to at | any time because chances are you will get blocked at one | point. If not permanent, at least temporary. | | If you're clever enough when you build the initial | integration, you make sure to abstract out the specific | payment provider so it's easy to plug in a new one. | Shouldn't add too much complexity. | | Sucks but the reality we live in... | viggity wrote: | This happens far too often. And because stripe handles | the PCI compliance, you can't even take your customer's | CC info to another merchant account. This is why people | need to be using a PCI tokenizer like BasisTheory. Then | you own the rights to the CC, without needing to handle | PCI compliance, and you can switch vendors easily. | jhdhjdkjdhcfnj wrote: | nice try mr sales person. | | PCI tokenizer is pure snake oil. | | "dear auditor, i do not store the credit card number, | only an unique index to fetch it at any time on this rest | service. i promisse it is totally not the same thing" | | good luck trying to make thay avoid compliance work. | krallja wrote: | > you can't even take your customer's CC info to another | merchant account | | Blatant FUD. https://support.stripe.com/questions/export- | customer-card-da... | atdrummond wrote: | I ran a medium/high risk payments firm and Stripe | followed through on customers' transfer requests perhaps | 10% of the time. One cannot rely on it. | posguy wrote: | For low risk clients, were the results different? Which | platforms (First Data, Tsys, etc) and ISO (FDMS, Gravity, | Bank of America, etc) were you seeing success with? | | I don't think the average ISO has the knowledge let alone | a published set of credentials to receive card data, the | ISO industry really sticks to the tooling platforms | provide. | theturtletalks wrote: | This works for normal payment processing, but Connect is | something that doesn't have a viable alternative. Lago | wants to abstract the Connect functionality and allow you | to use Stripe Payments, Paypal, other processors, and get | the Connect functionality to be open-source. Looking | forward to their work and it is sorely needed. | eloff wrote: | Completely agree, that's why this Lago is interesting to | me instead of using Stripe services. I'd rather use | Stripe for the bare minimum so I can implement support | for a backup provider as well. | zie wrote: | I generally agree, but if you go through the process at | your bank and get your own merchant account(it's a long | drawn out process), then the risk for the | bank/visa/mastercard/etc is much, much less, and you can | generally always reach out to humans and get answers. | It's worth the headache if you live or die on credit card | payments. | ryanbrunner wrote: | If you have recurring payments, moving the payment | methods over is a non-trivial amount of time and | coordination to get done (and I'm not even sure how | cooperative Stripe will be if you're on a fraud radar | somewhere), and usually only involves the raw methods | themselves, stuff like subscriptions you'll need to | rebuild. | | I don't think it's a bad idea necessarily, but it's very | difficult to almost impossible to make this a "flip the | switch" setup, particularly for SaaS businesses which are | almost always recurring payments. | | We're a largish Connect user and for us the key thing is | just establishing good relationships with reps in the | company and maintaining those. We've had a couple of | customers run into freezes and other issues and while | standard support is basically a brick wall in those | cases, getting someone internal to escalate can be hugely | beneficial. | jgust wrote: | You either die a hero or live long enough to become Paypal. | Spivak wrote: | live long enough to understand why Paypal became Paypal. | steve_adams_86 wrote: | Is the answer simply money? | aga98mtl wrote: | No, the answer is that credit cards allow chargebacks for | up to 180 days. Stripe or Paypal is betting on your | honesty by allowing you to withdraw sooner. Stray out of | their secret "safe" behavior allowed and they deem the | risk too high. | YetAnotherNick wrote: | Is there any processor which puts the funds to | themselves, with the legal binding that unless customer | charge backs I will get the money after the chargeback | period? Seems like this could save payment processor with | lot of headaches while reducing their fees. | 35mm wrote: | Probably not because it would be hard for most businesses | to wait 180 days to get paid. | Alupis wrote: | Also... new accounts that experience sudden surges of | transactions without well established seasonal patterns | and account history are very risky for all processors. | | The processor has to protect themselves from being used | in some sort of Carding-Farm Scheme, has to protect other | merchants from the processor being cut off by issuers | (for having too many fraudulent | transactions/chargebacks), and protect actual Card | Holder's from fraud (since the processor/merchant | ultimately are responsible for the chargeback). | | People are always surprised when their new account with a | few hundred a day in revenue suddenly surges to thousands | a day in a short period, and the processor wants to | investigate why... | | Use the tools freely provided by your processor to | protect yourself. Sweep the balance into your business | bank account every single day - it's usually automatable | and free. There is never a reason to store more than 24 | hours of revenue in a processor account... they are not a | bank! | iJohnDoe wrote: | It's a bummer that Stripe didn't enter the market to be | better than this and to bring something new to the table. | tiffanyh wrote: | Isn't the a function of not having your own merchant account? | By using Stripe, you're actually just a sub-account to them. | chinathrow wrote: | If you let Stripe convert e.g. USD (when you charge USD) to | your local currency (when you run your account e.g. in EUR), | then you pay them another 2% for that convenience. | | I switched to Wise and pay now an order of magnitude less for | that. | the_chatman wrote: | username_my1 wrote: | I genuinely don't understand why anyone would use stripe for | any scaled up business compared to adyen for example. | | stripe has a lot of value for out of the box integration, but | if you're running your own custom solution you will need to put | the same effort to integrate stripe at a 3x cost compared to | adyen. | | I understand it's a silicon valley thing and most likely those | who use it don't get the same public pricing other people get, | but aside from branding stripe is extremely expensive compared | to comparable solutions. | | and 4% of your top line is a huge thing to pay | emptysea wrote: | I'm pretty sure adyen requires a decent amount of volume | before they will allow you to use them, like in the 10s of | millions. | | Stripe provides self serve with is nice for getting started | and I'm guessing once you're big enough to jump to adyen, you | can likely get a discount on the sticker price since you have | bargaining power | makeitdouble wrote: | It's been a long time, but having dealt with Adyen a few | years ago my take away was they are way more punishing | regarding your implementation (we had calls randomly fail, | users not getting redirected, notifications out of order | etc.), with more options but also more rope to hang yourself. | | Those are all use cases we needed to cover either way and we | did, but errors were part of the routine more than | exceptional events. In comparison Stripe was way smoother and | documentation/support a lot easier to grasp. | username_my1 wrote: | We've been a customer for 7 years now and it has been | exceptionally stable setup | | But yes their documentation can be a bit poor around the | edges and if you don't really know what you're doing | dkyc wrote: | Is it really though? It very much depends on your definition | of 'scaled up'. Sure, you wouldn't run a Fortune 500's | payment processing through stripe's public pricing plan. | | But for a $10M SaaS startup, this would come to $350k/yr | (assuming some amount of non-credit-card and non-taxed | payments). I would say at least 60% of that you would pay | anyway to other payments processors, even doing all the | software stack yourself (nothing is free in the world of | finance, after all). So that leaves you with $140k p.a. for a | software stack that covers billing UI, invoicing, taxes, | financial reporting. It's far from obvious how you can come | up with a comparable solution yourself with a budget of at | most 0.5 developers and 0.5 designers that your $140k would | get you. | username_my1 wrote: | Yes 160k extra a year out of 10m is a lot | treewalking wrote: | If it costs 1 extra human to build everything you're | losing money leaving Stripe. | YetAnotherNick wrote: | If someone has revenue $10M per year, I guess it would be | more than 1. Also probably they would get discount in | stripe if some trusted business has revenue in that | range. | etothepii wrote: | That rather depends on gross margin. | MuffinFlavored wrote: | > - Particularly B2B SaaS will likely have some % of | invoice/bank transfer payment. | | At what price point? I would imagine anything lower than... | $200/mo? $500/mo? isn't worth ACH setup? | | I could be wrong. Would love to hear relevant experience on | what the cutoff is. | gizmo wrote: | > all Stripe services possible (Billing, Payments, Tax, Data | Pipeline). Where are the other ~4% supposed to come from? | | Stripe Radar, Stripe Identity, Stripe Sigma? It all adds up. | dkyc wrote: | Even including those, I don't see how you would get to 8%. | Apart from the fact that 'Stripe Identity' isn't something | I'd expect a standard SaaS company to need (or a tool like | Lago to provide), the cost simply isn't that high. Radar and | Sigma together for 1,000 monthly transactions adds like ~$130 | to your monthly bill. | | I challenge the authors of this blog post to provide me a | Stripe product setup that would result in an $8,000 monthly | cost for a $100,000 MRR SaaS company. It must be very | unusual. | sodality2 wrote: | I pay 15% fees because of a very low subscription fee | ($2.50). | | 2.5 * 0.029 = 0.0725 + 0.3 = 0.3725 / 2.5 = 14.9% | jessaustin wrote: | Have you tried encouraging longer subscriptions through | steep discounts? | sodality2 wrote: | Yep. I offer a yearly plan for $26. My customers are | split almost exactly half and half with monthly and | yearly subscribers | tyingq wrote: | They also don't refund fees when a customer wants a | refund. | the_chatman wrote: | pattrn wrote: | As a single sample: my SAAS startup pays just over 7% to | Stripe. | krallja wrote: | Good grief, talk to your account rep. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Hi dkyc, OP here. Sorry to read this was your impression, two | points: | | 1/ To prevent such a feeling, we've included this disclaimer at | the beginning of the post, (i) to state where we stand vs | Stripe, (ii) the source data is Stripe's pricing, happy to | share more details about the hypothesis | | "Disclaimer: This analysis is based on Stripe's public pricing | as of July 21, 2022. Some merchants may be able to negotiate | fees or benefit from grandfathered plans. Lago partners with | 'Stripe Payments' and can be used as a complement or | replacement of 'Stripe Billing'." | | 2/ I think below comments (to be clear: comments from people | completely unrelated to Lago) show how you can reach 4 to 8%. | It's also one of the reasons why 'Paddle' is an attractive | solution in Europe, it's an all-in-one solution that takes 5-6% | on revenue and provides subscription management, payments, | invoicing, tax management. | | Let us know if you need more info, or if you have feedback on | what we could have done differently. In any case, I genuinely | appreciate that you took the time to comment! | dkyc wrote: | Thanks for the reply! I just couldn't follow how you end up | paying 8% to stripe, save some _very_ non-standard | requirements or setup. You can relieve my concerns by telling | me the stripe product setup that results in a $100k MRR SaaS | company to pay $8k per month to stripe. Might very well be | that I 'm overlooking something! | | Otherwise, the "no one knows exactly how much but up to 8%" | framing reads like FUD to me. | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Got it! Will iterate on the article based on your inputs, | thanks for the constructive feedback! | danielskogly wrote: | Just a heads up that "More about our story here." at the | very end is a 404: https://www.getlago.com/company/about- | us | AnhTho_FR wrote: | Thanks a lot! I've just fixed it, it was supposed to | redirect to https://www.getlago.com/about-us | Silhouette wrote: | _I just couldn 't follow how you end up paying 8% to | stripe, save some very non-standard requirements or setup._ | | You can easily get close to that if you run a B2C | subscription service charging at typical consumer price | points - think Netflix but small enough to pay Stripe its | standard fees - and you're outside the US so you have a lot | of international cards and currency conversions to deal | with. | [deleted] ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-12-09 23:00 UTC)