[HN Gopher] Things your manager might not know (2021)
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Things your manager might not know (2021)
 
Author : piinbinary
Score  : 151 points
Date   : 2022-10-30 12:51 UTC (10 hours ago)
 
web link (jvns.ca)
w3m dump (jvns.ca)
 
| Kkoala wrote:
| Hmm, so what is the manager's job then?
 
| [deleted]
 
| bb88 wrote:
| Also, your manager might not know:
| 
| 1. How to manage people.
| 
| Maybe this is kinda snarky, but I've meet a few that didn't know
| basic management principles.
 
  | kennend3 wrote:
  | Another manager here and i might be able to provide some
  | insight into WHY you find managers who cant manage people.
  | 
  | Most large multinationals have very rigidly defined jobs, job
  | descriptions, point levels and compensation bands.
  | 
  | The terminology may not be the same but the overall effects of
  | the system are the same.
  | 
  | Lets say you have a great tech, they are a "tech level 3",
  | position level 100 and salary range "G".
  | 
  | If they want to make more money they need to move to salary
  | range "H" and need a JD that matches that salary range.
  | 
  | So they are promoted to a manager role to keep them, and to pay
  | them what it takes to keep them. Did they want to be managers?
  | Are they suitable for the job?
  | 
  | I've dealt with this scenario many times in my career.
  | Sometimes it would be far better off for everyone of the system
  | wasn't so rigid, and that good people could be paid to do their
  | jobs and not be artificially promoted to management positions.
  | 
  | It is an interesting "cobra" unintended consequences effect.
  | 
  | The goal of the system was fairness and to manage costs. The
  | unintended consequence is having many unqualified managers as
  | people game the system to their advantage.
 
    | ralph84 wrote:
    | Not surprising that a pay system designed by managers pays
    | managers more.
 
      | nouveaux wrote:
      | Designing comensation systems for other people is a people
      | management tasks. How do you envision a situation where ICs
      | are doing management tasks but not given the title and/or
      | pay of a manager?
 
    | Asooka wrote:
    | Maybe we should dispense with managers except at the very top
    | and just choose a random person from the team to be acting
    | manager for the week. If some person from the team will end
    | up being manager anyway, choosing randomly minimises the
    | disruption to work, since your best performer will be saddled
    | with managerial duties only occasionally.
 
      | throwaway821909 wrote:
      | Had a similar experience: I think regrettably if the
      | timescale is this short, no-one knows who to talk to (from
      | other teams/the proper managers the level above), there's
      | some need for memory/dealing with long-running things, and
      | so you end up with backseat driving, revisiting the same
      | issues without decisive action taken, etc
 
  | gregmac wrote:
  | A lot of managers were well-performing ICs that got a
  | promotion, either because a manager position needed to be
  | filled (and they were the least bad option) or they needed to
  | be promoted to keep them (which in some cases is the only way
  | to give them a raise).
  | 
  | Neither of these means they have even the basic skills to be a
  | manager at all, let alone a good one.
  | 
  | Unfortunately since these types of managers don't recognize
  | good manager skills, they'll go on to promote more unqualified
  | ICs below them into manager positions.. and the cycle repeats.
 
  | geoduck14 wrote:
  | >Also, your manager might not know: >1. How to manage people.
  | 
  | Manager here. This one hits close to home.
 
    | bb88 wrote:
    | The problem is that if your manager doesn't know how to do
    | his/her job then some of this advice may actually be harmful,
    | as they're viewing everything through the lens of their own
    | inadequacies or insecurities.
 
| [deleted]
 
| Grothendank wrote:
| Not only does this article make it your job teach the manager how
| to do their job, the article does not admit a cardinal truth: the
| manager unnecessarily eats into the value that you produce and
| should therefore be eaten in turn. If you can manage up, you can
| eliminate the manager, and gain your total share of the value
| production.
| 
| Now THAT is a superpower.
 
  | Raidion wrote:
  | You can't eliminate a manager just by managing up. Do you want
  | to be making the calls of who gets put on a PIP and managing
  | them through it (or out?). Do you want to sit in meetings
  | talking about business priorities and advocate for yourself and
  | your coworkers? Do you want to be the one to manage compliance
  | concerns around process for yourself and your co workers? If
  | yes, are you then going to complain about meetings and how you
  | can't get anything done?
  | 
  | Bad managers are clearly bad, but good managers make it look
  | super easy and boring because hard business priorities get
  | communicated as a simple and well crafted message, employee
  | issues are handled without fuss and out of sight before they
  | become big issues, and compliance and audit concerns are solved
  | at a system/process level before being rolled out to teams.
 
| svat wrote:
| (2021). Other posts from the author on related topics (all are
| helpful): https://jvns.ca/#career---work
 
| axpy906 wrote:
| This just reaffirms my belief after a decade in industry that
| middle management is useless. I wish businesses could move to a
| more decentralized form. You just don't need these people if they
| can't help you in you current or future job.
| 
| All managers should know the below. It's proof the job is not
| effective.
| 
| > Here are the facts your manager might not know about you and
| your team that we'll cover in this post:
| 
| >What's slowing the team down
| 
| >Exactly what individual people on the team are working on
| 
| >Where the technical debt is
| 
| >How to help you get better at your job
| 
| >What your goals are
| 
| >What issues they should be escalating
| 
| >What extra work you're doing
| 
| How compensation/promotions work at the company
| 
| Edit: It's by Julia Evans too. Awesome.
 
  | hinkley wrote:
  | I think this is talking about direct (line) managers.
  | 
  | But I've had managers who lead. I've had managers who
  | facilitate. I've had managers who manage their boss (which
  | overlaps with facilitation but is different). I've had managers
  | who only serves as tiebreakers. All have their value, but it's
  | very hard to relate to someone who doesn't want to do any of
  | those. Especially ones who are scribes.
  | 
  | Why is being a scribe bad? You only chronicle data that you
  | don't participate in so that later you can report on who did
  | what. In other words, it's not my fault it was Steve who made
  | that decision.
  | 
  | And then we had Mike whose only job seemed to be getting
  | promotions. Still have no idea what he did all day, except get
  | promotions. Wouldn't lead, wouldn't tie break, didn't
  | chronicle, didn't up manage, barely down managed.
 
  | bratbag wrote:
  | Middle management is not there for you. They are there to
  | provide the same type of support to your managers, that your
  | mangers provide to you.
  | 
  | Us lower managers are only human.
 
  | derwiki wrote:
  | Are there any current companies you would call decentralized?
 
    | sokoloff wrote:
    | Not GP, but I'm in a company which is pretty decentralized
    | (after being heavily centralized a decade ago).
    | Decentralization puts _different_ pressures to have good
    | middle management (at a minimum), but I think in some ways,
    | it even increases the pressures on management to make a
    | decentralized company effective.
 
      | ghaff wrote:
      | Well and I think you've been seeing a lot of it the past
      | couple of years. There's some natural informal organization
      | if a team is physically collated--which often isn't the
      | case and can be good or bad in any case. If everyone is
      | remote, a lot of that informal organization doesn't happen.
      | 
      | It's also the case that the realty of any established
      | company is budgeting, procurement, etc. There need to be
      | processes. I expect a lot of developers wouldn't like to
      | spend a day a week on this sort of necessary evil.
 
    | boramalper wrote:
    | Valve?
    | 
    |  _Valve Handbook for New Employees_
    | 
    | https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/apps/valve/Valve_NewEmployee.
    | ..
 
      | salty_biscuits wrote:
      | My experience with "flat" structures in the past has been
      | the lack of an explicit hierarchy created an implicit
      | hierarchy, which caused compensation to not match actual
      | role and some diabolical politics. Never again. I've kind
      | of moved on to wanting to work at places that run on
      | information and not confidence instead. You can work out
      | which type of place you are at pretty quickly by talking to
      | upper management. Unfortunately most people want confidence
      | and not information.
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | agumonkey wrote:
  | currently dealing with questions about how to get a fairer TC
  | without breaking eggs.. strange venture.
 
  | svat wrote:
  | All managers should know everything relevant; all people should
  | be perfect. But meanwhile, no one is, and this post is useful
  | advice for reality.
  | 
  | I cannot claim to know everything I "ought to" know for my job,
  | and I don't expect my manager to either. But that doesn't make
  | me, or management in general, "useless". We do what we can.
 
    | BlargMcLarg wrote:
    | Then split up the job. If it is obvious you're spread too
    | thin, stop doing it and making yourself near useless, split
    | the job into multiple and focus.
    | 
    | We've done this with multiple other disciplines. Management
    | is one of few continuing to converge and trying to do the
    | impossible while insisting they are a net gain on average.
    | That's irresponsible from a support role with a
    | disproportionate amount of power compared to those they
    | manage.
 
  | WastingMyTime89 wrote:
  | All the people here must be incredibly awesome because in my
  | experience after having worked as a contributor, a project
  | manager and a manager, when you leave developers to themselves
  | they spend a lot of time fixing issues they care about and
  | improving systems they like working on but very little time
  | actually wondering if these bugs and these systems were the one
  | who needed to be worked on right now to be able to keep the
  | engagements we took towards our customers and for the project
  | to survive.
 
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Here's a good question to your manager: How did you feel about
| that?
| 
| Asking for immediate, gut feedback about something that you did,
| or happened to the team, gives you a read on how much managing up
| is needed, and/or gives your manager an opportunity to say, "I
| was surprised by that and I need to know more" or "That's not the
| direction I was shooting for, let's adjust this."
| 
| I also once explained that there was only 10 tonnes of concrete
| coming in the next truck and doing both #1 priorities was
| physically impossible, so it was time to choose. My manager,
| laughing, said, ok, so now you're really going to make me choose,
| huh?
| 
| Humanitarian logistics was easier than software because sometimes
| the choices were so stark and unavoidable.
 
| vsareto wrote:
| If you do this, go ask your manager for a raise for doing another
| role on top of your current one. Don't give away your superpowers
| for free.
 
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| If your boss comes from a place with high sycophancy like
| Infosys, TCS, IBM or a similar, don't try this.
 
  | haltingproblem wrote:
 
    | perfecthjrjth wrote:
    | Nothing racist about this remark. TCS, Infosys, Wipro, etc.
    | produce bad managers, along with additional baggage: they
    | inculcate sycophancy across the management chain.
    | 
    | Even though most of the management in American companies is
    | incompetent, I won't hire these people for this reason alone:
    | they perpetuate chamchagiri/sycophancy across the chain.
 
      | haltingproblem wrote:
      | Wipro too. So just Indian consulting companies? Yeah, still
      | racist.
 
        | perfecthjrjth wrote:
        | Why is it racist? Just because they are Indians? If so,
        | you are missing the point: these consulting companies
        | don't judge managers by competence, they judge managers
        | by the number of tickets closed, by the number of
        | billable hours, their chamchagiri(sycophancy).
 
        | 29athrowaway wrote:
        | IBM. There, enjoy.
 
    | 29athrowaway wrote:
    | That is a strong accusation. If you see my comment history
    | here you will learn more about how that statement is false.
    | 
    | I am saying that companies like those have a management
    | culture that is not tolerant to managees suggesting managers
    | what to do.
    | 
    | You can see many employees of those companies in Quora and
    | Glassdoor saying the same thing.
 
      | haltingproblem wrote:
      | Your past statements do not whitewash your current
      | statement. See the unfolding Kayne West saga. Your
      | statement stands on its own.
      | 
      | My question was: do you think this is limited to _Indian_
      | consulting companies or is endemic to all consulting
      | companies? You seem to be doubling down on I would say the
      | accusation stands verified.
 
        | 29athrowaway wrote:
        | You see what you want to see.
 
        | kylevedder wrote:
        | Are you trolling?
 
  | marginalia_nu wrote:
  | May also be time to look for another boss if that is the case.
 
| imoreno wrote:
| You would think that keeping the team effective is the basic job
| of a manager. Dealing with people who don't know how to do some
| part of their own job is of course an unfortunate, yet inevitable
| reality. But this is on the level of "developer who doesn't know
| how to code". The article leaps into teaching the manager to do
| their job, but often just switching teams or companies is much
| easier. Plus, after you put in all the effort, not every manager
| can turn around and appreciate it, many will just take credit and
| give you nothing. So if you're going this direction, there should
| be some thought given to deciding whether your manager would
| recognize your efforts.
 
  | saagarjha wrote:
  | I mean, if you're in an adversarial relationship with your
  | manager you should think of changing that, but a lot of these
  | are just misunderstandings and the inability to have the entire
  | team in their head at once. Like, as a developer, you can be
  | pretty good at writing code and still get useful feedback from
  | a code review. Having a communication channel open with your
  | manager helps them do their job better and also helps you, and
  | doesn't necessarily indicate any sort of personal failing.
 
    | imoreno wrote:
    | >if you're in an adversarial relationship with your manager
    | 
    | Where did you get this idea?
 
      | saagarjha wrote:
      | There's an "if" in front, to help people recognize that my
      | comment applies to healthy relationships and not unhealthy
      | ones. No comment on your relationship with your manager.
 
  | gunsch wrote:
  | It sounds like you're assuming "managing up" is about managers
  | who don't know how to do their job. I don't think this article
  | is saying that.
  | 
  | My best managers weren't ones who knew every detail of each
  | project and could give unsolicited effective advice. They were
  | ones to whom I could tell what was going on on my project,
  | could ask for help, could tell them what I needed, and then
  | rely on them to follow through on helping make that happen.
  | Sometimes that was needing more time for a deadline, sometimes
  | it was needing a mediation in a complicated relationship with
  | another team, and sometimes it was using manager clout to go
  | escalate a request for compute resources.
  | 
  | In any case, two-way communication is going to create a more
  | effective relationship than expecting your manager to simply
  | _know_ what you need.
 
| yrgulation wrote:
| Non technical managers are not needed. They get in the way and
| there is rarely any benefit from having them in a technical team.
 
  | twelve40 wrote:
  | depends on how big the company. When a large company needs to
  | decide where to allocate the resources, a smart non-technical
  | manager will be there fighting for you, and that's a full time
  | job once you are in the 100's of engineers, because nobody has
  | monopoly on truth, and normally the exact allocation has to be
  | hashed out in a bunch of fulltime meetings, even in well-run
  | orgs. As an IC, I'm glad someone else is doing it for me.
 
    | yrgulation wrote:
    | I dont think anyone expects ics to play management roles.
    | What i am for is management with a technical background,
    | otherwise its like mixing water with cooking oil. One sits on
    | top and pretends to mix.
 
      | tomjakubowski wrote:
      | Replace the aqueous part with vinegar or lemon juice and
      | you have yourself an emulsion, which also makes a delicious
      | salad dressing. What sort of role is like acetic acid in
      | your analogy?
 
        | yrgulation wrote:
        | You lost me there but people with tech skills should lead
        | technical people. Otherwise its like sending the senate
        | to lead soldiers on the battlefield. They have no clue
        | and either lose wars or use large numbers to win battles.
        | And thats what some of the companies do - they hire loads
        | and loads and loads of people to achieve what could be
        | done with fewer, better organised, and better led people.
        | Without exception, unicorns and faangs have been built by
        | engineers working directly with stakeholders. Then they
        | go down the path of layered management and bloat and end
        | up the chryslers and fords of tomorrow.
        | 
        | Instead all non technical management should he fired,
        | including pdf certified scrum masters and other imaginary
        | roles, and tech people with skill and interest should be
        | promoted.
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | joshthecynic wrote:
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | ok123456 wrote:
  | This is 100% correct.
  | 
  | All they know is to say "that's nice, can you do it in half the
  | time you estimated with half the resources?" because that's the
  | only way they can justify their job. This is what they learn in
  | MBA school or from their project management certificates.
 
| ThalesX wrote:
| tl;dr; do your manager's job also because they don't have a clue
| and it's up to you to clue them in.
| 
| There's also a pretty conclusion where if you suck up and do your
| manager's job, you get the superpower of being appreciated by
| your manager, it makes you more valuable than the dumb engineers
| that just do their job.
 
  | [deleted]
 
  | JW_00000 wrote:
  | I don't read the article like that: it's not a list of (all)
  | things your manager doesn't know, it's a list of (some) things
  | your manager might not know. In other words, these are all
  | things your manager should know, but they might not know some
  | of them. And then the advice is to tell them. (But with
  | concrete examples and more worked out.)
 
    | ThalesX wrote:
    | > I don't read the article like that: it's not a list of
    | (all) things your manager doesn't know, it's a list of (some)
    | things your manager might not know.
    | 
    | I have a feeling this is the same core truth, but worded
    | differently and with less distaste for managers.
    | 
    | > In other words, these are all things your manager should
    | know, but they might not know some of them.
    | 
    | Should, but don't, is not doing their job. Most engineers
    | don't have the luxury of using this defense their day to day
    | job. Yeah, I _should_ be doing testing, but I don 't know. I
    | _should_ be writing clean code, but I don 't know. I _should_
    | be communicating with my colleagues, but I don 't know. I
    | _should_ know what weight this bridge can hold, but I don 't
    | know.
    | 
    | Most of these examples wouldn't work with just 'tell them'.
    | 
    | > And then the advice is to tell them
    | 
    | Tell them what? Manager, this isn't working? I'd be laughed
    | at for this kind of approach. Maybe it would work if I went
    | in a structured approach, with my homework done, with
    | actionable items in the context of the company, but then I'd
    | end up doing their job.
    | 
    | ----
    | 
    | I don't want my point to be that managers shouldn't be told
    | what issues might exist, I hope the point I get across is
    | that we shouldn't be doing their jobs and it's their
    | responsibility to get this information through the numerous
    | tools they hold under their belt, and not depend on engineers
    | to spoon feed them.
    | 
    | Imagine if this is the only way a manager gets the know how.
    | If I'm an engineer with a loud mouth I can crash the entire
    | department by feeding my manager select information.
 
      | sbuk wrote:
      | Yes, but in order to do the level of management you are
      | asking, it necessitates they become micro managers. This is
      | a considerably worse state of affairs, as you allude.
      | Managing is about helping you grow as an employee, helping
      | you with your career and helping you do your job. The best
      | managers are the ones that stand in the way of things that
      | block these. How do you suppose they do this without you
      | telling them what you _need_?
 
        | ThalesX wrote:
        | I gave the article another read and found some advice
        | even weirder. I'm not going to go through all of it, but
        | this bit stood out to me.
        | 
        | > I've found it really valuable to start out
        | conversations about compensation / promotions in a fact-
        | finding way - instead of saying "hello, i want a raise",
        | it's a lot easier for everyone to start with "hey, how
        | does this work? can you explain it to me?".
        | 
        | How does what work? If I want to learn more about
        | compensation / promotions, I ask about that. If I want a
        | raise, I want to discuss the raise. We can conflate them,
        | but why?
        | 
        | But the conclusion I would like to summarize my point:
        | 
        | > Being good at telling your manager the right
        | information at the right time and asking for what you
        | need is a superpower. It makes you way more valuable to
        | have on a team (because your manager knows they can trust
        | you to give them the information they need), and it's
        | more likely that you'll get what you want (because you're
        | making it easy for them to do that!).
        | 
        | Flipping this upside down, "being good at asking your
        | team the right questions at the right time and asking for
        | what you need is a superpower. [...]". This is great
        | advice! Both for a team member and for a manager. The
        | difference is that the team member has to deal with the
        | actual production also, while the manager's 'production'
        | is the actual thing being flipped. So if things are
        | flipped and I end up micro-managing myself, is the
        | manager actually doing his job?
        | 
        | Of course when there are issue that makes sense to bring
        | it up, we should do it, but I'd argue that it's more of
        | the manager's job to be on top of things and ask the
        | right questions, at the right time, without
        | micromanaging, because that's his job, and it's why it's
        | such a hard job to do right. It's a lot easier in my
        | opinion to find good engineers than to find good
        | managers, and I believe this advice is good for engineers
        | that have bad managers and it's worth calling it out.
 
        | sbuk wrote:
        | I think this is a much clearer take, well, at least to
        | me! The key here, and if I'm mistaken - forgive me, is
        | that a good manager needs to be a good communicator, but
        | doesn't get in your way. By the same token, it can be
        | said that to help them help you, communicating with them
        | is essential. It may seem obvious, but I'm sure lots of
        | us have experienced bad managers that don't do this...
 
      | dasil003 wrote:
      | > _Should, but don 't, is not doing their job. Most
      | engineers don't have the luxury of using this defense their
      | day to day job. Yeah, I should be doing testing, but I
      | don't know. I should be writing clean code, but I don't
      | know. I should be communicating with my colleagues, but I
      | don't know._
      | 
      | This is needlessly antagonistic. All teams have gaps, but
      | effective teams help each other out. For instance, a good
      | manager will give you air cover when things are
      | underestimated or unforeseen difficulties arrive.
      | Similarly, good engineers will point out risks and
      | potential problems even if it is not directly in their
      | execution path.
      | 
      | The most toxic teams are ones where everyone keeps their
      | head down and looks for every opportunity to say "not my
      | job" whenever any larger or unusual challenges are
      | identified. Based on your comment it seems like you think
      | that ICs can't get away with this, but managers can, and I
      | assure you that neither is true.
 
| haltingproblem wrote:
| OT but I am making a year-end resolution to skim everything Julia
| and Patrick have written on their site, then make a list of deep-
| dive pieces.
| 
| The amount of useful content these two crank out is mind-
| boggling. They hold down day-jobs and write more useful stuff
| than 98.3413% of writers out there!
| 
| I would love to see a fire-side chat on how their process works.
 
| epicureanideal wrote:
| At a typical startup they might not know much of anything. Except
| someone else in management who is a personal friend.
 
  | scruple wrote:
  | Yeah. I interviewed with a startup at the beginning of this
  | year and the Engineering Director was telling me how he brought
  | his friends on-board like it was some sort of selling point.
  | People he has known since high school. Hard pass.
 
    | hfourm wrote:
    | Friends plural is slightly worrisome, but we're they
    | qualified for the positions?
    | 
    | I personally love the idea of recruiting friends and working
    | alongside them. Obviously I could see this going both ways,
    | but given that everyone is qualified I don't see the problem.
 
| thenerdhead wrote:
| This is a great list. Especially the summary regarding how all of
| this can be a superpower.
| 
| There's also a few other tougher scenarios.
| 
| - they might not know you're doing parts of their job.
| 
| - they might know of problems but fail to let their manager know.
| 
| - they might not know your career aspirations.
| 
| - they might know someone is problematic on the team.
| 
| - they might not know they get in the way more than they help.
| 
| - etc
 
  | ar_lan wrote:
  | > they might not know your career aspirations
  | 
  | This is something I really didn't understand when I started my
  | career, and I realized I just got lucky with my managers for
  | looking out for me.
  | 
  | I still kind of don't get how managers don't assume their staff
  | want to promote upward (at least as a default), but I respect
  | that I am also not a manager and don't know the amount of
  | things they need to juggle.
 
    | Raidion wrote:
    | Manager here: Because not everyone does!
    | 
    | Think (some) single parents with kids, (some) people doing
    | elderly care for their parent(s), people who have decided the
    | work/life tradeoff isn't worth it, etc. Almost every team has
    | at least one person who wants to interact as little as
    | possible and have a decent salary, and in return, turns out
    | quality code and meets expectations to the letter, then logs
    | off.
    | 
    | There is also a very fine line to walk with an employee who
    | wants to get to the next level for salary/prestige/ego, but
    | isn't willing to push themselves or improve, and constant
    | conversations of "hey, if you want level N+1 you need to be
    | more involved in code reviews and be better at meeting your
    | commitments (or estimating those commitments)". It's not fair
    | to try to hold a level N to a level N+1 standard in the name
    | of "career development", and there is a point where it's not
    | worth your (or the employees) time and stress to "pull" them
    | up to the next level.
 
      | ar_lan wrote:
      | Yeah, I guess it's tricky. As a new parent I had
      | essentially told my manager I wanted to put the brakes on
      | career progression for one year, and he was very receptive.
      | So I understand that perspective a bit.
 
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| I think management as we know it is dying.
| 
| In the fifties management studies (Drucker etc) was focused on
| the manager as a systems creator - who would bestride the
| business world fixing, innovating creating smooth clockwork
| systems.
| 
| Today Google's eight rules for managers is basically a cross
| between HR and a life coach.
| 
| Systems are now run by software - and the inevitable conclusion
| is that _coders are the new managers._
| 
| As more and more software eats more and more of the world, there
| is less and less need for anyone who is not coding or talking
| about the code.
| 
| We may see the end of rigid hierarchies at the same time (a
| similar but related issue), which kind of points to two things
| 
| - code is the thing. And discussions around the code matter. And
| the prime examples of doing this are in FOSS - so expect more
| open public disagreements leading to better quality code
| 
| - Public (internal) discussion of issues means a lot of self-
| governance and a lot of "politics". This goes on anyway but if it
| is kept public it is kept honest
| 
| - management has always been about resource allocation and it is
| best to view senior management as financiers not executives -
| this might be the best split internally - senor management buying
| from internal self organised resources.
| 
| - Incodentslly I think a lot of the problems facing most
| companies today are that they cannot work out how to measure
| quality work during rmeote work and cannot get people to
| communicate if they are not all in the office. Having a big email
| discussion list is unwieldy - but if that is your organisation
| then conways law will explain how your software works. if you
| don't like it, it is waaay easier to adjust your email lists than
| move offices.
| 
| Edit: imagine Bezos' two pizza teams - each can be viewed as a
| independent contract supplying a business-micro-service - at a
| doctrinal level style guides and devleads / linting rule, and at
| an operational level it's which micro-services, how to combine
| their output, etc etc
| 
| (i need to expand this but Amazon might not be a great company to
| work for but the organisational design seems to point i the right
| direction )
 
  | WastingMyTime89 wrote:
  | You do realise that a lot of things happening at most companies
  | have absolutely nothing to do with code?
 
    | lifeisstillgood wrote:
    | But why not?
    | 
    | I mean a company is effectively "just" a machine to deliver a
    | service / outcome from inputs. It is a set of processes -
    | which can be codified. why not in software? And if you want
    | to chnage the process, make a release.
 
    | throwaway821909 wrote:
    | I mean, I'm not convinced by the comment, but I think the
    | article is talking about managers of developers, nearly all
    | of the people here are involved in development, mostly at
    | companies which are predisposed to trying to replace humans
    | with software (because their product does the same)
    | 
    | So the interesting question is, in that context is a manager
    | becoming ever less necessary
 
  | analog31 wrote:
  | >>>> Systems are now run by software - and the inevitable
  | conclusion is that coders are the new managers.
  | 
  | I shudder at the thought of being managed as badly as most code
  | works. Most sufficiently complex technologies have to be
  | operated in manual override mode most of the time.
 
    | PicassoCTs wrote:
    | Its freedom to manage yourself, if you can hack the system
    | sufficiently enough, that it avoids interacting with you. So
    | as strange as it sounds, if you are clever and already
    | managing your manager, nothing changes.
 
  | marcinzm wrote:
  | >Today Google's eight rules for managers is basically a cross
  | between HR and a life coach.
  | 
  | Is Google something to aspire to? They got early into a very
  | lucrative market and have basically been milking it for
  | decades. Good for them but luck isn't reproducible. Their
  | ability to deliver new products is so bad it's literally a
  | joke. I can't even remember any viable new product from them in
  | the last decade (the 10th iteration of chat doesn't count). In
  | terms of productivity they were known as a rest and vest
  | company. Great for engineers but I can't imagine it's great for
  | a company without a near infinite spigot of money.
 
| donclark wrote:
| I feel like this list may be applied to parenting, teams in
| school, etc. Good communication is a big part of successful
| relationships and teams/groups.
 
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