[HN Gopher] The Psychedelic Experience: A new concept in psychot...
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The Psychedelic Experience: A new concept in psychotherapy (1962)
[pdf]
 
Author : bingden
Score  : 66 points
Date   : 2022-04-24 17:42 UTC (5 hours ago)
 
web link (erowid.org)
w3m dump (erowid.org)
 
| bingden wrote:
| https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1080/02791072.1968.10524522 also
| works
 
| ArtWomb wrote:
| "Psychedelics are to the study of the mind, what the microscope
| is to biology and the telescope is to astronomy" -Stanislas Grof.
| 
| While it feels like an artifact from the future, Berkeley CSP is
| now formally certifying "facilitators". And its important to
| note, because the cure is the experience. Not the actual
| biochemistry. We know a lot about the botany and chemistry of
| these compounds. And we can actually map phenotypes with human
| genes to predict certain effects. But the missing bridge between
| the two is the trip. The fact that we are finally after so many
| millennia attempting to apply Baconian methods to what was
| hitherto described as quasi-miraculous feats mystical exploration
| is exciting. And I believe will be fruitful, though in the short
| term generate many more questions than answers ;)
| 
| https://bcsp.berkeley.edu/training/
 
  | pmoriarty wrote:
  | I'm happy to see research done, wish these researchers nothing
  | but the best, and do expect a lot of marvelous and useful
  | discoveries to be made.
  | 
  | However, I suspect that science will run in to hard limits
  | regarding the deepest questions that contact with these
  | substances raise -- such as the fundamental mystery they often
  | reveal that is ineffable, transverbal and non-conceptual.
  | 
  | These questions are more aptly addressed by philosophy and
  | religion, and I expect that after an initial phase of medical
  | and hard-science attempts to engage with the experiences these
  | substances occasion (attempts that the highly rational and in
  | some ways science-worshipping society demands before these
  | substances can be legalized), most people's engagement will
  | move to a religious and religio-medical model (or call it
  | "spiritual" if you don't like the word "religious").
  | 
  | Psychedelics have shown to be catalysts for starting religions,
  | occasioning mystical experiences, and converting people.. and
  | these tendencies will only increase as psychedelic use becomes
  | more popular. New religions will sprout and existing religions
  | will try to incorporate psychedelic use once they see these
  | substances revitalizing religious feeling and engagement.
  | 
  | We're only starting to see the barest hints of this now,
  | because most religious people aren't aware of psychedelics'
  | potential in this area.. but this trend will almost certainly
  | flourish once they are. There might be a backlash on some
  | level, as some religions are allergic to giving their adherents
  | direct access to what their authorities are supposed to have a
  | monopoly over.. but it's not clear whether such suppression
  | will be effective this time.
  | 
  | Religious wars over psychedelic revelations might be possible
  | too. It's too early to tell, but it'll be an interesting next
  | couple of hundred years, that's for sure.
 
    | ArtWomb wrote:
    | Alan Watts, I think put it best: The most important
    | philosophical question you can ever ask is "Who Am I"?
    | 
    | And that's what we are talking about here: seeing yourself,
    | perhaps for the first time. Not societies expectation, the
    | fount of all our neuroses. And undergoing the "ego-
    | dissolution" the opens the door to healing.
    | 
    | If you think about it: what is an addict? Rationally, they
    | wish to cease. But physically, behaviorally cannot. Yet, here
    | is a substance that in essence super-charges the rational
    | mind. Instantly. The transformation is so acute, the old
    | habits seem impossible.
    | 
    | Now imagine your own mind, programmed to optimal turbo-
    | charged rationality. Always picking the perfect action in any
    | environment. Scale that across humanity and the
    | possibilities, as stated, are not just new religions, but new
    | evolutions ;)
 
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| This is an incredible article. So beautifully and sensitively
| written. It is wonderful to know that the methods described here
| are just now becoming possible to enact legally.
| 
| But damn. Here's the rough schedule: 200 mcg LSD at 9am followed
| up an hour later by a full dose of mescaline and then 5 hours
| later a dose of amphetamine. At 5:30p they are sent home with a
| friend and given a sleeping pill.
| 
| I've tried a lot, but that's quite a day.
 
| LB232323 wrote:
 
  | swayvil wrote:
  | Assuming a "spiritual" dimension, it's fair to say that there
  | are an infinite number of ways to navigate it.
 
  | BobOfW wrote:
  | Christianity is thousands of years old. If it was the answer to
  | the ills of our nation, it would have worked already.
 
    | [deleted]
 
| Stevvo wrote:
| Research in this field went through a dark age of 50 years,
| inspiring to see the government is relenting a little.
 
| tomatowurst wrote:
| i say it again and again whenever i see these threads:
| 
| psilocybin mushroom kicks down depression so hard it can't get up
| and bother you again.
| 
| no SSRIs, no marijuana after taking it.
| 
| anxiety and ptsd are still there tho so i think that requires
| something else. also something about THC that seems to reverse
| the benefits I got from psilocybin. cessation of THC seems to put
| me "back" on track if that makes sense.
| 
| disclaimer: ymmv, please get a sitter, if not, do it outside
| (best to do it on the grass) where you are safe, comfortable, and
| calm.
 
  | 867-5309 wrote:
  | what is your dosage and frequency?
 
    | radicaldreamer wrote:
    | I've heard this is only effective at "heroic" doses -- most
    | studies also use a high dose (>= 25 mg psilocybin)
 
      | tomatowurst wrote:
      | going to be honest i really don't buy this microdose, your
      | body will quickly build natural tolerance to psilocybin.
      | this is not like THC or alcohol where you drink tiny
      | amounts, the effects will be felt.
      | 
      | it makes sense why the body builds tolerance to psilocybin
      | so rapidly and half life is quite long (at least a month or
      | two) for evolutionary purposes. which to me is interesting
      | because it shows that we've evolved to build tolerance
      | against it but THC takes far longer and in very high doses
      | to build tolerance.
      | 
      | all in all, I've read accounts of people seeing positive
      | changes with microdosing but for my case, while I did not
      | take heroic doses (McKenna's 5 grams), I took at best 2 to
      | 3 grams. In higher doses I had a transcendental
      | experience....
      | 
      | while nobody has died from taking psilocybin outright,
      | there had been reported incidents where it had impact on
      | somebody prone to schizophrenia and psychosis. However its
      | extremely rare. This is why I suggest to people to have a
      | sitter and be at a ground level.
      | 
      | It's not an issue for the millions of people that take it
      | but if you've never even smoked marijuana before and this
      | is your first try, please get a sitter.
 
        | Trasmatta wrote:
        | > it makes sense why the body builds tolerance to
        | psilocybin so rapidly and half life is quite long (at
        | least a month or two) for evolutionary purposes
        | 
        | The half life of psilocybin is only a couple of hours,
        | not a couple of months. The mental after effects can
        | linger for a long time of course, if that's what you
        | mean.
 
        | tomatowurst wrote:
        | i mean when you redose, its effect will be significantly
        | diminished. it is not something you can do
        | recreationally, "only on the weekends" type of thing.
 
    | renewiltord wrote:
    | I feel highly motivated when on and for a period after coming
    | down. Dose: 3.5 mg dry fruit. Frequency: Maybe once a month;
    | only recreationally with friends.
 
  | radicaldreamer wrote:
  | I think THC affects some people by kicking their anxiety into
  | high gear (I know that's the case for me). One day, we'll
  | probably figure out the genetics underlying that effect.
 
    | wnolens wrote:
    | This is true for me. But it wasn't always the case.
    | 
    | It used to be a release from the grip of boredom and permit
    | my brain to dance about joyfully.
    | 
    | Now it flips my anxiety switch and I get stuck in a self
    | conscious loop. Almost the opposite. Wish I could go back.
 
      | tomatowurst wrote:
      | was why i stopped taking marijuana, if absolutely need be,
      | a low THC + high CBD combination seems to put anxiety at
      | bay but what I dislike is the racing thoughts, the euphoria
      | that kicks you out of boredom but keeps you coming back.
      | 
      | some people don't seem to have it as bad but for me I
      | really struggle with the popular belief that marijuana is
      | harmless. We simply don't know, we are guinea pigs with
      | these high thc marijuana.
      | 
      | I certainly wasn't my best with it, it magnified emotions
      | and past memories, it exasperated my OCD/ADD. Looking back,
      | I really wish I hadn't used marijuana but at the same time,
      | glad I went through that phase when I was younger.
 
    | Malp wrote:
    | Absolutely. I'll add that there has been some preliminary
    | exploration[0] into the genetics already; many would dismiss
    | the psychotic and psychedelic (often disturbing and
    | unpleasant) trips that some experience from THC (or cannabis,
    | but this study focused on THC rather than other cannabinoids
    | that may have been present), but there's already an
    | established case that suggest that it's not simply an
    | anxiety-ridden trip.
    | 
    | 0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4872423/
 
    | robbedpeter wrote:
    | For me, the paranoid/anxious/fixated type of high can be a
    | feature, not a bug. I try to meditate when it happens.
    | Marijuana can be a tool to exaggerate the way you're feeling
    | about mistakes, shortcomings, and flaws you perceive in
    | yourself, and when you're not high, you can assess what to do
    | about how you're feeling. It's helped me make peace with my
    | self image, and forced me to confront negative habits and
    | patterns in my life.
    | 
    | Drugs can be great to poke and prod your psyche and help with
    | questions like "why do I think or feel like this?"
    | 
    | Identifying things in your environment that trigger anxiety
    | or paranoia can also make your home a more comfortable and
    | cozy place. When your perception is altered, it's an
    | opportunity to learn new things. The new perspective can be a
    | valuable tool for becoming a better version of yourself.
 
  | wnolens wrote:
  | Any advice on the sitter? I don't have the perfect friend
  | available, not sure there's an option here except to do it
  | alone or not at all
 
    | DocG wrote:
    | 1. You can have friend at your place nearby playing computer
    | games or something else. Just there incase you panic or have
    | issues. They should read up a bit before. Basically they are
    | there to tell you that, example, you get anxiety, that you
    | are fine and what you are feeling is not real and let go.
    | 
    | 2. If no one is around stat with super low dose first time.
    | And grow from there over months if you are scared. You'll
    | understand after low dose what's coming and thank yourself
    | later.
    | 
    | 2. You can not have any and I mean any plans for that day.
    | Not even I'll have to take the trash out in the evening,
    | seriously. Turn the phone to airplane so no one can call and
    | block messages. You do not want anything that requires
    | functioning human from you. You could do that but it will
    | ruin your time.
    | 
    | 4. Outside - no matter how cozy your home is do it in your
    | country house or somewhere where you are alone and feel safe,
    | have a fallback house or place but still in nature. Dunno,
    | rent something.
 
  | ghostly_s wrote:
  | People might take your more seriously if you acknowledged that
  | your personal experience is not necessarily universally
  | applicable to the very large group of people who suffer
  | depression.
 
    | tomatowurst wrote:
    | I'm not alone that psilocybin has improved or outright
    | "cured" depression in people, you will find plenty of studies
    | and articles on this.
 
      | ghostly_s wrote:
      | I'm not suggesting you are - but that gives you no basis to
      | claim it is a guaranteed cure for all sufferers of
      | depression.
 
  | in3d wrote:
  | Also ketamine. Lots of scientific and anecdotal evidence is
  | accumulating every month. It might also work for other mind-
  | related issues, such as eating disorders.
 
    | GordonS wrote:
    | I've suffered from life-long depression, since I was around 5
    | years old. I won't go into the details here, but it will
    | suffice to say that it's been a fucking horrible waste of
    | life.
    | 
    | A couple of years ago I was prescribed ketamine (multiple
    | times a day, taken orally, a non-psychoactive dose) for an
    | unrelated chronic neuropathic pain condition... and I feel
    | like it's _cured_ my depression! It really is an absolutely
    | _incredible_ drug - I only wish it was more widely available
    | to others in my situation.
 
  | Trasmatta wrote:
  | > disclaimer: ymmv, please get a sitter, if not, do it outside
  | (best to do it on the grass) where you are safe, comfortable,
  | and calm.
  | 
  | I just want to echo how important this disclaimer is. There's
  | no free lunch, and psilocybin can be incredibly challenging.
  | For some people it is massively helpful for depression, but
  | this is not a guarantee. Do your research and have a guide (if
  | at all possible).
 
    | vmception wrote:
    | I just want to get to the point where what you wrote is
    | written in fine print on the side of a bottle, specifically
    | because the FDA saw it happen in the clinical trials for that
    | specific use case
    | 
    | Instead we are just left with this hodgepodge of random
    | completely different experiences controlled for nothing
 
    | pmoriarty wrote:
    | Something else that's critically important is to make sure
    | you know what you're getting is actually psilocybin and not
    | something else, and that the dosage actually is what you
    | expect.
    | 
    | If you're part of a research study at a respected
    | institution, that's easy. Not so easy if you're getting it on
    | the black/gray market or picking mushrooms yourself.
    | 
    | So if you have to get it from the black/gray market, educate
    | yourself thoroughly on how to tell if it's real and what the
    | dosage you're getting is.
    | 
    | Alan Rockefeller has some great videos on psilocybin mushroom
    | identification: [1] [2]
    | 
    | [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInqVRRva7M
    | 
    | [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs
 
      | loceng wrote:
      | They're openly being sold in Canada; I believe end-of-life
      | care research had such positive results that has now lead
      | to it now being given to terminally ill cancer patients to
      | help them come to terms with their situation.
      | 
      | https://dose.land
      | 
      | You may end up on a list but that didn't stop marijuana for
      | propagating through society when illegal; now legal in
      | Canada, widely available, a big industry, and tax revenue
      | source.
 
      | ghostly_s wrote:
      | Psylocibin mushrooms are easy to propagate (as far as
      | mushrooms go) and I'm not aware of any other psychoactive
      | chemicals found in mushrooms that won't kill you, so what
      | is it that you are concerned about? I've never heard of
      | someone buying "counterfeit" magic mushrooms.
 
        | pmoriarty wrote:
        | _" I've never heard of someone buying "counterfeit" magic
        | mushrooms."_
        | 
        | Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it
        | doesn't happen.
        | 
        | First, mushrooms can be misidentified, due to
        | carelessness or ignorance. A misidentified mushroom can
        | be poisonous. So that's my primary concern.
        | 
        | Second, it's easy to just add whatever chemical you want
        | to non-psychedelic mushrooms, so it's quite possible that
        | you'll get some non-psychedelic mushrooms with some
        | mystery drug added to them.
        | 
        | Third, if someone on the street (or even a friend) offers
        | you something they claim is psilocybin, there's no way of
        | knowing if it really is psilocybin unless you test it.
        | 
        | Figuring out the substance's purity/dosage is even more
        | difficult, as labs in the US that do commercial drug
        | testing aren't legally allowed to report purity, and
        | reagent testing isn't going to tell you.
        | 
        | The amount of psilocybin/psilocyin in mushrooms also
        | varies greatly, so going by gram of mushroom weight (dry
        | or fresh?) isn't very reliable.. especially if you don't
        | know exactly which species _each_ of the mushrooms are
        | and someone 's just selling you some mystery "magic
        | mushrooms".
 
        | tomatowurst wrote:
        | This is ridiculous. People selling psilocybin mushrooms
        | aren't going out of their way to sell you counterfeits
        | because the profit margin is already so low for this
        | category and you could easily tell apart shitake
        | mushrooms from psilocybin mushrooms.
        | 
        | Nobody is on the streets selling psilocybin like they
        | sell other drugs, it would be like people trying to pass
        | off broccoli as marijuana.
        | 
        | I'm sorry but you sound like Nancy Reagan right now. You
        | are trying to warn people about something that you
        | yourself have barely experienced or knowledgeable about
        | by taking some other tangent item and applying it here
        | because it is "drugs".
 
        | pmoriarty wrote:
        | What assurance do I have that some rando at a festival
        | who claims to have "magic mushrooms" is actually selling
        | psylocybin mushrooms? None.
        | 
        | They might have picked some "little brown mushrooms" in a
        | field somewhere thinking they were psylocybin mushrooms
        | but not gone to the effort to identify them properly, or
        | just not known how to do it, or made a mistake. Or maybe
        | they got it from someone who told them that's what they
        | were, but themselves didn't know, etc.
        | 
        | Or they (or their supplier) might have gone the easy
        | route and bought some mushrooms and sprinkled some "bath
        | salts" on them.
        | 
        | As a consumer you just don't know -- especially if
        | they're dried, crumbled mushrooms which could be just
        | about anything or a mix of stuff.
        | 
        | It's just sad hearing people who are so adamantly
        | determined to stick their head in the sand and trust
        | whatever drug they're being peddled is what their dealer
        | claims it is.
        | 
        | Nancy Reagan's famous line was "Just say no." I'm _not_
        | saying  "Just say no". I'm saying "Just say _know_. "
        | 
        | Educate yourself. Test your stuff. Be smart. Don't just
        | guzzle down whatever you're given without satisfying
        | yourself that it actually is what your provider claims it
        | is.
 
        | ghostly_s wrote:
        | Why would someone waste their time foraging for
        | psylocibin mushrooms to sell? They can be grown for
        | basically free and in much larger quantities. Dried
        | psylocibin mushrooms are still easily identifiable. If a
        | rando drug dealer was claiming to have psylocibin
        | capsules, for instance, sure, that would give me pause.
        | But again - have you EVER heard of this happening? I've
        | not. You're talking nonsense.
 
    | dr_dshiv wrote:
    | Be deliberate and have fun. _And always know that you will
    | sober up._ you are on drugs -- you aren't crazy -- you will
    | be fine -- you didn't break your brain.
 
  | jokowueu wrote:
  | For PTSD i recommend taking a look at stellate gangelion block
  | 
  | https://youtu.be/nC2fBe6U7lg
 
  | jstx1 wrote:
  | Why psilocybin and not LSD?
 
    | pmoriarty wrote:
    | The focus of recent research in to psychedelics has been on
    | psilocybin rather than LSD because, as one researcher joked,
    | politicians don't know how to spell psilocybin.
    | 
    | LSD still has some scary connotations towards some of the
    | older generation based on the sensationalism and scare-
    | mongering of the 60's and 70's, while most people didn't know
    | about psilocybin until researchers started reporting positive
    | things about it in the last decade or so.
    | 
    | There have been some studies that showed that even
    | experienced psychedelic users can't tell the difference
    | between the major classic psychedelics, so there might be
    | much actual difference between LSD and psilocybin in the last
    | analysis... though more research is definitely needed.
    | 
    | Still, if any classic psychedelic is legalized in the US, the
    | first one will probably be psilocybin.. and research will
    | continue to focus mostly on it, for the above mentioned
    | reasons.
 
  | supertofu wrote:
  | Ayahuasca "cured" my depression. When I say "cured", I mean
  | that it helped me experience my mind without depression.
  | Because I was able to step out of depression for the first time
  | since prepubescence, I realized it was _possible_ for my mind
  | to exist away from depression. That realization was profound
  | and critical to regaining my mental health.
  | 
  | Psychedelics are very powerful. Ayahuasca in particular can and
  | does induce psychotomimetic states, as described in the
  | article. If you are not in ceremony with a trained plant
  | medicine practitioner, this "pseudo psychosis" can become very
  | overwhelming and even damaging.
 
    | tomatowurst wrote:
    | whew, ayahuasca is a whole different beast and frankly is
    | frightens me and I don't think I ever want to be in a
    | position where I do it.
    | 
    | psilocybin's come up is frightening/anxiety/panic inducing as
    | it is....I don't think I can ever jump over ayahuasca, that
    | seems like a whole different animal.
    | 
    | For me I feel like psilocybin "reset" my brain and there's
    | some long lasting protection mechanism against depressive
    | thinking. Even if I do feel down, something pulls me out of
    | it. Whereas depression once it pulls you in, it likes to keep
    | you there.
    | 
    | Do not take psychedelics lightly, especially ayahuasca and
    | heroic doses. Even for the come up on psilocybin, it required
    | considerable self calming and focused willpower to overcome
    | the fear of losing ego. But my god, what comes after, the
    | clarity, the peace, love and lingering positivity....zero
    | chance the pharmaceutical community will be able to replicate
    | it.
 
      | pmoriarty wrote:
      | Ayahuasca brews vary widely in composition, depending on
      | who brews it.
      | 
      | I'd be very wary of some self-styled shaman adding datura
      | or some other nightshade plant to the brew (which is not
      | unheard of), and that's something I definitely want to stay
      | far, far away from.
      | 
      | Unless I was brewing it myself I'd want nothing to do with
      | it either, because I couldn't be sure of what I was
      | getting.
 
        | tomatowurst wrote:
        | heard lot of horror stories of self-proclaimed shamans
        | trying to capitalize financially. datura is scary
        | stuff...
 
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