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|u/chrisdh79 - 2 days
|
|From the article: New research [published](https://www.sciencedirect.com
|/science/article/pii/S2772598724000345) in Psychiatry Research
|Communications suggests that the hormone melatonin may be closely linked
|to the severity of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
|symptoms in children. A study led by Hamamatsu University School of
|Medicine found that genetic variations affecting melatonin production
|could contribute to ADHD symptoms, particularly through disrupted sleep
|patterns. These findings highlight the potential benefits of healthy
|sleep routines in managing ADHD symptoms. Melatonin is a hormone
|naturally produced by the pineal gland in response to darkness, helping
|regulate sleep-wake cycles. It signals the body when it’s time to sleep,
|supporting our internal “biological clock,” or circadian rhythm.
|Disruptions in melatonin production can make it harder to fall asleep,
|affecting sleep quality and overall well-being. Melatonin has other
|roles as well, including supporting immune function and reducing
|inflammation. For many individuals, melatonin secretion follows a
|predictable pattern, rising in the evening and lowering in the morning.
|However, this pattern can vary, and certain conditions may interfere
|with typical melatonin levels, disrupting the sleep cycle. ADHD, a
|neurodevelopmental disorder, is characterized by symptoms of
|inattention, hyperactivity, and impulsivity. For children with ADHD, one
|common challenge is establishing a stable sleep routine. Many struggle
|to fall asleep on time, which worsens their daytime symptoms and leads
|to a cycle of sleep deprivation and increased hyperactivity or
|inattention. While ADHD’s exact causes are complex, involving genetic,
|neurological, and environmental factors, recent research suggests that
|sleep disruptions could be a contributing factor. Specifically, children
|with ADHD often exhibit delayed melatonin secretion, which might be
|linked to difficulties in winding down and falling asleep at night.
|“Sleep disturbances are common in children with ADHD, yet the mechanisms
|are not fully understood. Our interest stemmed from the hypothesis that
|disrupted melatonin secretion, a key regulator of circadian rhythms, may
|play a role in ADHD, potentially linking sleep patterns with genetic
|risk factors,” said study author Nagahide Takahashi, who is now a
|director in the Department of Neurodevelopmental Disorders at the
|National Center of Neurology and Psychiatry in Tokyo.
|u/spiritussima - 2 days
|
|Melatonin is as crucial to treating my kid's ADHD as stimulants.
|u/whyshouldiknowwhy - 1 day
|
|I’m glad I’m not the only one! I take LixDex 40mg (vyvanse) every
|day and 4mg melatonin on a night. I would struggle without both
|u/askingforafakefriend - 1 day
|
|Vyvanse is a godsend... I don't think any dosage of melatonin is
|psychoactive noticably for me. Trazodone every night helps
|immensely and seems to improve sleep architecture anyway though.
|u/dastree - 1 day
|
|I love trazodone to help me sleep, I hate the restless leg that
|comes with it if I take it too early though
|u/concreteghost - 1 day
|
|How long you been on that regimen?
|u/whyshouldiknowwhy - 1 day
|
|About a year and a half. I take my meds on and off. I’ve been
|diagnosed since 2017
|u/concreteghost - 20 hours
|
|You’ve never had to up the melatonin?
|u/whyshouldiknowwhy - 16 hours
|
|Nah, mind, I probably take it 1/2 of the time
|u/NorysStorys - 2 days
|
|I mean if you asked anyone with ADHD this, they could have told you
|all of this. I’ve not had a good night sleep for over 20 years at this
|point.
|u/GamerLinnie - 2 days
|
|That is true for some but not all. I for example sleep amazing. I
|fall asleep easily and stay asleep. It is also an interesting
|chicken and egg situation. It would be great if we can treat some
|kids with melatonin instead of other meds.
|u/polypolip - 2 days
|
|I sleep without issues, once I'm in bed I fall asleep almost
|immediately. I have problem getting to bed. And then I have
|problem waking up. If I sleep in total darkness, with blinds down,
|I won't properly wake up for like 12h.
|u/Supergaz - 1 day
|
|I do a trick, set two alarms, one 20 minutes before the "real"
|alarm. Take medication on the first alarm, by the second alarm
|the medication is in my bloodstream and I wake up like a normal
|person. Ofc always have water and medication by your bed etc.
|As far as I know, the waking up process is pretty messed up in
|Adhd people, so it all makes sense. Also the medication being a
|stimulant obviously makes it much easier to wake up. My sleep
|quality is very ass, but I think that comes down to being really
|slim and not having a soft enough bed and being really bad at
|keeping a normal sleep schedule. I don't have issues falling
|asleep or getting up, but going to bed, regardless of being
|tired or not, I am super bad at getting up and going to bed. It
|is way way too easy to procrastinate going to bed and suddenly
|everything is fucked as hell
|u/patchgrabber - 1 day
|
|Couldn't you just do the same by hitting snooze?
|u/Supergaz - 1 day
|
|I could, but snooze is 5 minutes per default and I have to
|be sure the second one works for sure
|u/patchgrabber - 1 day
|
|5 minutes? Mine defaults to 10, I've never heard of
|defaulting to 5, that's more like a snoo not a snooze. But
|either way you do you boo.
|u/Supergaz - 1 day
|
|Ye it works
|u/polypolip - 1 day
|
|I used to drink a cup of coffee before going to bed whenever I
|wanted to wake up on time. I started meds not long time ago
|and I prefer to take it after food, so your trick might not
|work for me.
|u/Supergaz - 1 day
|
|Coffee before sleep is not good, it kills sleep quality.
|Also yeah, it is hard to eat breakfast after taking meds on
|an empty stomach. If appetite becomes an issue with meds
|drinking less coffee helps. If I drink coffee and take meds
|at the same time, my stomach gets sad
|u/polypolip - 1 day
|
|Sleep quality is not the best for me but strangely I feel
|more rested in the morning. I pretty much quit coffee for
|the meds, now I drink it only when I forget to take meds.
|u/XForce070 - 2 days
|
|Yes same for me. Which is due to what this study says i guess.
|You don't have the urge to go to bed due to the lack of
|'tiredness'. I think this is generally already very accepted
|since this sleep schedule is a very big part of my current
|treatment, event going as far that they offer sleep studies for
|those with ADHD. If I understand correct this article is mostly
|about the reason why melatonin production is different in people
|with ADHD
|u/frankyseven - 1 day
|
|Yep. Sleeping isn't the issue, going to bed is. I'm told I have
|a gift for sleeping, but going to bed sucks.
|u/tequilavixen - 1 day
|
|Yup this is my ADHD sleep in a nutshell. Plus all the brain fog
|unless my meds are in full swing. Ironically enough, I got a
|sleep study done and turns out I have textbook perfect sleep
|u/nomellamesprincesa - 19 hours
|
|I haven't been diagnosed with ADHD (yet), but I strongly
|suspect I have it, struggling a lot with brain fog and with
|sleeping patterns (falling and staying asleep is easy, going
|to bed much less so, getting out of bed is near impossible),
|am always exhausted walking up, I also had a sleep study done
|(in the framework of a citizen science project on the effects
|of noise pollution on health), also perfect sleep here.
|u/The_Singularious - 2 days
|
|I wish melatonin worked for me. Have an ADHD Dx, and get brutal
|nightmares when I take melatonin. Same for my daughter.
|u/babar001 - 1 day
|
|Same. Worse with instant release, manageable with extended
|release.
|u/The_Singularious - 1 day
|
|I haven’t tried the latter. Ty for bringing it to my
|attention.
|u/sweng123 - 1 day
|
|They also come in patches, now. Instant release always
|messed with me, as well, but not the patches.
|u/The_Singularious - 1 day
|
|Ty. Good to know.
|u/spiritussima - 1 day
|
|What about guanfacine? Used as a non-stimulant ADHD medication
|but also makes people sleepier (and I wonder how much of it is
|treating the sleep issues and in turn helping ADHD)
|u/The_Singularious - 1 day
|
|Have not tried that. Good news is that low-dosage Adderall is
|super effective for my ADHD. But yeah, regular sleep would be
|helpful. I get some relief from valerian/passionflower tea,
|and Lemon Balm tablets. But thank you. Gonna speak with my
|doctor about it.
|u/MediocrePotato44 - 1 day
|
|I have the same issue with it, on top of it making me skin crawl
|and inducing restless leg syndrome.
|u/ditchdiggergirl - 1 day
|
|That may be the dose - high dose melatonin reduces sleep
|quality. You should keep your dose at 1.0 mg or less. I normally
|take 0.3 mg as per my physician, and can handle 1 mg, but when I
|have gone over 1 mg I get the psycho dreams.
|u/brit_jam - 1 day
|
|Have you tried magnesium glycinate?
|u/KwekkweK69 - 11 hours
|
|I get sleep paralysis with melatonin
|u/The_Singularious - 11 hours
|
|Oh wow. That is seriously unfun.
|u/Taway7659 - 2 days
|
|Oral melatonin doesn't do *anything* for me personally. I did a
|fistful of gummies at one point in exasperation. My limited
|experience with conventional ADHD medication on the other hand has
|me going to sleep organically and waking up with the dawn.
|u/zombienudist - 2 days
|
|Have you tried a timed released melatonin? I have tried regular
|and found it gave me strange dreams and then I would be up at
|3am. So I tried timed released version and it is much better
|and keeps me asleep for most of the night.
|u/Fragsteel - 2 days
|
|Oh man, I'm gonna look up the time release version, I've had
|the 3am thing consistently lately.
|u/zombienudist - 2 days
|
|Don't overdo the dosage as I found that can lead to
|headaches and fogginess the next day. I typically take 5mg
|of timed released right before bed along with magnesium and
|while my sleep is not perfect it is much better than it has
|been in years.
|u/Fragsteel - 1 day
|
|Yeah I heard too much melatonin can also create a
|dependence. I'm on 3mg now, also with magnesium taurate.
|Good looking out!
|u/ImObviouslyOblivious - 1 day
|
|What does taking magnesium With it do?
|u/zombienudist - 1 day
|
|I just take it along with Melatonin to help with sleep
|also. There is some evidence that it helps promote
|lower anxiety and muscle relation along with a number of
|other benefits that help with sleep. [Magnesium for
|Sleep: Benefits, Risks,
|Tips](https://www.health.com/condition/sleep/magnesium-
|for-sleep)
|u/Fragsteel - 1 day
|
|I take it because it supposedly has a positive effect on
|amphetamine tolerance, and I take Adderall. But you
|can't just get the store bought kind for that, that's
|always a cheaper version that apparently doesn't work as
|well for that purpose.
|u/Taway7659 - 1 day
|
|I have not: I'll give it a shot.
|u/GamerLinnie - 2 days
|
|It does wonders for my son. His entire life bed time was a
|struggle. There were days when he would cry because he was so
|tired but he couldn't sleep. Other days he would stay in bed
|but would fall asleep super late. I had read an article about
|the importance of sleep in kids and bought him a super low
|children specific dose. It was the first time he slept at a
|decent time without any issues. I took him to the GP the next
|week and it was the first day in him getting his diagnosis. He
|now also takes ritalin but the biggest change has been the
|melatonin. He himself says that now he feels the sleepy switch
|and he starts to get sleepy instead of just tired.
|u/ditchdiggergirl - 1 day
|
|Fistful??? No wonder you couldn’t sleep. It’s a hormone, it’s
|not dose dependent and high doses can interfere with sleep
|quality. The recommended range is 0.3-1.0 mg.
|u/Taway7659 - 1 day
|
|That was an expression of the ends I'd gone to. Lowest OTC
|dose didn't work, next dose didn't work, some steps later the
|family who insisted it works fine for them added some weight
|and I did what I said.
|u/Moldy_slug - 1 day
|
|Same here. When I’m taking adderall during the day I have a much
|easier time going to sleep at an appropriate time and waking up
|in the morning.
|u/Nobanob - 1 day
|
|Same however my biological clock wakes me up between 6-7 everyday
|and has for decades. I don't need to, I don't want to, and it
|prohibits me from staying out very late. As I still wake the same
|time every day regardless
|u/TripleSecretSquirrel - 2 days
|
|Ya, I have ADHD hardcore but I’ve never had trouble falling or
|staying asleep.
|u/Momoselfie - 1 day
|
|Yeah my daughter is a deep sleeper too and usually can fall asleep
|pretty fast. Sometimes her ADHD makes it hard for her to sit still
|and go to sleep, but it's not usually an issue. I think part of
|her ADHD stems from just being too excited about too many things
|at once, not from lack of sleep. I do struggle with sleep but I
|get that from my mom. My dad sleeps fine and he's the one my ADHD
|comes from.
|u/Gastronomicus - 1 day
|
|> they could have told you all of this. They could have told you
|they express delayed melatonin secretion? They all have access to
|biomedical facilities that allowed them to measure this across a
|wide array of other subjects with ADHD? Responses like yours are
|incredibly unhelpful in r/science.
|u/NonConRon - 1 day
|
|What is this delay called? I can't sleep right now. It fucks up
|my whole damn life.
|u/zombienudist - 2 days
|
|Have you tried taking melatonin? As an adult with ADHD who has
|struggled with sleep for the past 20 years what finally worked for
|me was timed released melatonin. Regular gave me vivid dreams and
|had me awake at 3am. But timed released has helped me stay asleep.
|I generally take that along with magnesium at night right before I
|go to bed. While my sleep is not perfect it is far better than it
|has been in years trying this.
|u/NorysStorys - 1 day
|
|Not available in the UK without a prescription and that
|prescription can only be given on a formal diagnosis of a relevant
|condition, of which I’m currently on a 5-10 year waiting list to
|be assessed. No option to go private to speed it up because the
|inability to sleep keeps me out of work and on disability welfare.
|It’s all incredibly dumb because many therapists have concluded
|that it’s ADHD causing my issues but unless a specifically
|qualified Psychologist assesses me, I’m just stuck.
|u/zombienudist - 1 day
|
|And I thought Canada was strict on some of this stuff. Here it
|is just available to anyone without a prescription like most
|other vitamin supplements. The bottles do say to consult with
|your physician before long term use. I actually was at my
|doctors two weeks ago and discussed it and he said there was
|zero problem taking it long term.
|u/NorysStorys - 1 day
|
|It was set up that way in the 90s because Melatonin was being
|overused by people who then faced issues later. They
|overreacted though as it’s more common for zopiclone is more
|easily prescribed than Melatonin
|u/i-Ake - 1 day
|
|I used to cry until I fell asleep most nights as a kid. My brain
|would not turn off. I would just stare at the ceiling for hours and
|cry. I forgot about it til now... the nights felt so long and
|lonely. My mom hated when I got into their bed at night, too. They
|had a waterbed, and I used to try to balance myself on the wooden
|edge of my dad's side so I wouldn't make waves, but my Mom would
|always feel me movi g and kick me out. Ow, childhood. I forgot about
|all that. I sleep *better* now, compared to that, but not great.
|u/AftyOfTheUK - 1 day
|
|Lived my whole life with ADHD. I used to sleep like the dead until
|30. It wasn't uncommon in my teens/twenties to sleep until midday.
|Now I'm in my fourties I need chemical help to sleep a few hours at
|a time. Everyone is different, and age changes us.
|u/Bamith - 1 day
|
|Weed gummies sometimes helps, or in the very least I don’t mind it
|as much when tossing and turning.
|u/dendudes123 - 1 day
|
|facts man at this point i sometimes take melatonin to fall asleep
|earlier or smoke a joint. just anything so i can fall asleep at a
|normal time. waking up tired is such a drag on life
|u/JesseBrown447 - 1 day
|
|I may have had a few good night's sleep my entire life. Most days,
|it's tossing and turning and waiting for sleep that never comes.
|u/Knerd5 - 1 day
|
|Have you tried ear plugs? I started using them and it makes a big
|difference. That plus a blackout curtain making the room pitch
|black.
|u/TurbinesGoWoosh - 1 day
|
|Black out curtains are amazing! But if I use earplugs, I'm left
|with only the deafening "sound" of my tinnitus. Tinnitus is
|particularly noticable at night when there isn't any other noises.
|So using something to produce a consistent background or white
|noise (ie: air purifier or fan) helps "drown out" the tinnitus. I
|also like "headband headphones" for sleeping to play some white
|noise if I'm having a particularly bad night. They're great for
|side sleepers and those who move around often. But a really
|helpful thing to do to promote melatonin production is to not stay
|up scrolling on your phone and turn off the lights. Even a small
|amount of light is enough to inhibit melatonin production. It's a
|hard habit to break tho, especially with ADHD. I'm still working
|on it myself.
|u/it-was-justathought - 1 day
|
|They could probably also tell you that waking up sucks- for me worse
|than not getting to sleep on 'time'. It's more than just not enough
|sleep- Do they know what the rise an fall of the melatonin levels were
|in the kids? IE were there abnormal levels in the morning?
|u/Octopus_ofthe_Desert - 1 day
|
|My adoptive mother destroyed my ability to sleep easily as a child.
|She would give me many times an adult dosage of Melatonin to me when
|she didn't want to deal with me. I was as young as five or six.
|Found out a few years ago I have ADHD, CPTSD, now I find out the
|insane creature that kept me away from the world for the first 11
|years of my life has left yet another scar on me. I'm going for a
|beer
|u/Sporkers - 1 day
|
|Or the increase in ADHD is from parents being too lax with
|establishing and enforcing good sleep routines for their children from
|a young age....?
|u/zombienudist - 1 day
|
|In the book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker he discusses this and how
|many childhood ADHD diagnoses could actually be chronic sleep
|deprivation. So there has to be great care in making sure that a
|childhood diagnosis of ADHD is actually that and not chronic lack of
|sleep. Here is part of what he says. "An added reason for making
|sleep a top priority in the education and lives of our children
|concerns the link between sleep deficiency and the epidemic of ADHD
|(attention deficit hyperactivity disorder). Children with this
|diagnosis are irritable, moodier, more distractible and unfocused in
|learning during the day, and have a significantly increased
|prevalence of depression and suicidal ideation. If you make a
|composite of these symptoms (unable to maintain focus and attention,
|deficient learning, behaviorally difficult, with mental health
|instability), and then strip away the label of ADHD, these symptoms
|are nearly identical to those caused by a lack of sleep. Take an
|under-slept child to a doctor and describe these symptoms without
|mentioning the lack of sleep, which is not uncommon, and what would
|you imagine the doctor is diagnosing the child with, and medicating
|them for? Not deficient sleep, but ADHD."
|u/Sporkers - 1 day
|
|Thank you, this is very informative.
|u/Koreus_C - 1 day
|
|It's tooth paste with fluoride and caffeine in pregnancy.
|u/Accomplished_Trip_ - 2 days
|
|Is that why sitting in the dark makes it too boring to sleep?
|u/poemmys - 2 days
|
|“Too boring to sleep” is a good way to put it. I need a tv or
|something on so I can distract my mind from thinking. I basically have
|to trick my brain into letting me sleep.
|u/Lachshmock - 1 day
|
|For me it's long YouTube science videos, works a treat. I like to
|think the information subtly seeps into my brain while I sleep.
|u/Fragsteel - 2 days
|
|Audiobooks have done wonders for me in this regard. I wasn't even a
|reader, especially not fiction. But having something to pay attention
|to without the visual stimulation is very helpful.
|u/robotsongs - 1 day
|
|How do you maintain cohesion throughout the book? If it just keeps
|playing while I sleep, how do I find out where I last listened in a
|36-hour recording? Even if I do a timer, I'll either fall asleep too
|soon and have to scroll a bunch to find where I was at, or it stops,
|I'm jolted awake, and then I have to spend the next hour or two
|trying to fall back asleep. What's your solution?
|u/Fragsteel - 1 day
|
|I do use a timer, and that helps, but figuring out where I had
|stopped the night before is indeed inconvenient. But, as I was on
|my way to sleep that time, it's not so bad to err on the early
|side and re-listen to a short bit. Though the book turning off
|doesn't wake me up. That's a new one to me.
|u/Ratfit - 17 hours
|
|Works well for me too but I have to be careful because I’ve woken up
|in a panic on more than one occasion because the book took a turn
|and suddenly something awful happens to a character and the voice
|actor starts crying/yelling/speaking in the worlds creepiest voice
|u/Incarcer - 13 hours
|
|My personal solution is have something on that you're familiar with.
|You have something to fill the silence and you know what you're
|missing, so easier to keep your eyes closed. Sometimes you drift off
|with it, and sometimes you sort of tune it out, but it still oddly
|occupies the mind enough and then you hopefully drift off. Something
|that covers my eyes helps a lot too. Everyone has to find their own
|little 'system'
|u/Jubjub0527 - 2 days
|
|Where can I like, sign up for this? Put me through brain scans, mris,
|he'll crack my head up and poke around to see if you unlock a hidden
|memory. Just tell me what's going on in there.
|u/Haldoldreams - 1 day
|
|Unfortunately most clinical research studies share very limited
|individualized data with participants, especially experimental
|results. Sharing such information conflates research with medical care
|which is an ethical no-no. Also, it is difficult for laypeople to
|grasp the uncertainty of experimental results so by sharing this
|information you run a big risk of giving people false impressions.
|u/the__mom_friend - 2 days
|
|This is so interesting because when my son (now diagnosed with ADHD) was
|younger we tried giving him small doses of melatonin to help regulate
|his sleep schedule. (I promise it was under our pediatrician's guidance,
|poor little guy was getting no rest and we were desperate). We
|immediately stopped because it gave him horrific night terrors! I wonder
|if some of this is why?
|u/williamshakemyspeare - 1 day
|
|This happened to me at doses that were too high. I had great results
|with 1mg tablets, which is smaller than most stores carry for some
|strange reason.
|u/321gogo - 1 day
|
|This. I even bite a third of 1mg at a time. Also I’ve found the
|dreams come mostly when the melatonin gets me to sleep far off my
|sleep schedule. Like if I am trying to sleep > 1hr earlier than the
|night before.
|u/zombienudist - 2 days
|
|The same thing happened to me when I tried normal melatonin as an
|adult who has ADHD. Not night terrors but very strange vivid dreams
|that were far too intense. Then I would be up at 3am and not be able
|to fall back asleep. For me I didn't really start struggling with
|sleep until I was in my 30s after I had kids and turned to drugs and
|alcohol to help. After quitting drugs and alcohol I have tried just
|about everything. What finally worked for me was timed released
|melatonin in the right dosage. I find that 10mg is too much. 5mg
|of timed released is the right amount for me but of course everyone is
|different. It does make some kind of sense that you are taking a dose
|of melatonin, and a typical pill will give you that does all at one
|time while a timed-release version will take 6 hours or so to get into
|your system. While not perfect my sleep is far better than it has
|been in years doing that. So something for them to try if sleep is
|still difficult for them.
|u/wollflour - 1 day
|
|Would you be willing to share the brand name or where you get your
|timed-release melatonin? It looks like some brands that say they are
|time-release aren't super legit (as they come in gummies, which
|seems impossible to do a timed dose). I'd like to try but would
|prefer not to waste money on a non-legit brand. Thank you!
|u/zombienudist - 1 day
|
|I use the Weber Naturals Melatonin Extra Strength. I am in
|Canada and it is carried at a lot of places including Walmart
|here. Don't know if you can get that kind elsewhere though.
|[Melatonin 5 mg Time Release Tablets | Webber
|Naturals](https://webbernaturals.com/products/melatonin-5-mg-
|timed-release-tablets?variant=40995009364047) The bottle says to
|take 1-2 tablets but I find that 2 was too much and led to me
|having headaches and grogginess the next day. So I stick to one
|tab a night or a 5mg dose.
|u/kimbabs - 1 day
|
|Woah, I thought I was the only person that had these strangely vivid
|dreams on melatonin. It became so bad I couldn’t tell my dreams
|from real events. I had to stop. What was most frustrating is I
|didn’t always feel sleepy on it either, just… oddly detached from
|reality.
|u/ditchdiggergirl - 1 day
|
|No, lots of people do. It’s dose related; high dose melatonin
|reduces sleep quality. The therapeutic range is 0.3-1.0 mg, but I
|haven’t seen 0.3 in the stores in over a decade. I can tolerate 1
|mg but any higher and I get the psycho dreams.
|u/___Jet - 1 day
|
|Same here, helps me fall asleep fast but straight up horror dreams
|u/amanda77kr - 19 hours
|
|Both me and my mom have very vivid dreams on melatonin. She hates it,
|most of hers are bad dreams. It’s a very common side effect. Valerian
|root and CBD are other options. Weirdly I also find exercise within a
|couple hours of bedtime helps.
|u/maraemerald2 - 1 day
|
|I wonder if that’s part of why stimulants help ADHD symptoms so much.
|We’re just tired! I know I for sure don’t really ever fall into a
|“sleep pattern”. Even going to bed at the same time every day and
|getting up at the same time, I still have to set a “go to bed” alarm or
|I naturally stay up hours too late. My body just doesn’t tell me to go
|to bed on time.
|u/ditchdiggergirl - 1 day
|
|The causal arrow clearly points in the other direction for me. I
|refused to take ADHD meds for most of my life, except intermittently
|but I didn’t care for it. A few years ago my doc talking me into
|trying another (ritalin) and my sleep greatly improved. I can miss one
|dose without ill effects but if I miss a couple of doses (common,
|because, you know, ADHD) I can’t sleep.
|u/Archinatic - 1 day
|
|I think there is a lot of basis for ADHD primarily being a condition
|of bad sleep. About 50% of pediatric ADHD cases suffer sleep
|disordered breathing (such as sleep apnea). These are physical
|conditions that impair sleep quality due to obstructed breathing. It
|is mainly caused by environmental factors that in turn lead to
|allergies, obesity, bad jaw development, etc. Daytime sleep apnea
|symptoms are also helped with stimulants. They just don't treat it
|that way because we have an actual fix which is to prevent breathing
|disturbances from occuring. This raises serious questions about ADHD
|being a purely genetic neurodevelopmental condition. That isn't to say
|that it could not be the case for some.
|u/UkuleleZenBen - 2 days
|
|It's interesting because the sleep researcher Matthew Walkers' book
|talked about how we all have different genetic "chronotypes" or times of
|day that we are more likely to base ourselves around. So that the tribe
|can have watch people at night. Here they call it sleep disruption but
|as an adhder with a sleep difference to normal it feels like the world
|of this time is the one that's confused. Since I stopped working on
|trying to fit the mainstream narrative of sleep times I've been way more
|productive and I have energy to do a lot in those quiet hours. As a
|side note it makes sense that distractibility would be called a "hunters
|eye" not so long ago in the grand scheme of things. We adhders are
|carrying genetics of another age. Optimized for a different age rather
|than for this blip of an age we are passing through.
|u/DinoDude23 - 1 day
|
|Unfortunately that whole “Hunter vs farmer” framing doesn’t have a lot
|of support, and I say that with great reluctance as a fellow ADHDer.
|Selection against adhd-associated alleles *predates* the advent of
|Neolithic farmers in Europe; moreover, the higher the proportion of
|Hunter-gatherer ancestry among individuals in those ancient
|populations, the LOWER the frequency of ADHD-associated alleles among
|those individuals. That suggests Paleolithic Hunter-gatherer
|populations were already experiencing selective pressures against the
|ADHD phenotype. Any phenotype x environment mismatch would have to be
|before anatomically modern humans appeared to begin with. The whole
|“hunter vs farmer” framing is also overly simplistic, as it asserts
|that Hunter-gathering requires less executive functioning…and I simply
|do not believe that is the case. Planning ahead and situational
|awareness is just as important for hunters as for farmers. A guy
|hyperfocusing on catching a gazelle might not see the leopard stalking
|him while he’s at it. The underlying assumption about the cognitive
|load of one lifestyle versus the other is a massive assertion without
|any rigorous support to my knowledge. Variation will exist purely
|because of mutation, drift, and gene flow. Not every allele exists
|because of natural selection. Nor does every allele persist because of
|it; Natural selection can’t completely purge deleterious variants if
|the genetic load of the population is high enough. The brutal fact is
|that there is simply diversity among humans in any given
|population. Some of those mutations will make our lives easier, others
|not.
|u/ditchdiggergirl - 1 day
|
|>Unfortunately the whole “Hunter vs farmer” framing doesn’t have a
|lot of support, Unfortunately neither does the night watchman
|theory. In fact it can probably be ruled out. But people find
|comfort in believing their conditions have a purpose.
|u/NonConRon - 1 day
|
|Can you tell us more about that? I really like that theory. -.-
|u/GeekYogurt - 1 day
|
|I mean, I could be a good pre-historic hunter but I kept putting off
|sharpening my arrows and now I’m running out of the cave door right
|at the end of the sabretooth migration with a few dull nubs on a
|stick and a bow that came with an introductory DVD on how to use it
|that I never watched.
|u/DogOnABike - 1 day
|
|Whenever I've had a vacation or other scenario where I don't have to
|plan my sleep around responsibilities, and can just go to bed when I
|feel like it and sleep until I wake naturally, I've always settled
|into a sleep schedule around 2-10 AM. I felt more energetic, focused,
|and in a generally better mood, too.
|u/tequilavixen - 1 day
|
|My oura ring actually tells me what my chronotype is based on my sleep
|data and suggests my bedtime accordingly
|u/Top_Hair_8984 - 1 day
|
|Was just about to add a similar post. Yes! I'm much older so usually
|have the luxury of sleeping when I naturally would rather than forced
|into the 9-5 schedule. But I had that when I was younger for sure and
|struggled badly with it. I'd absolutely agree that the present era
|has no room for most people's natural cadence. We all are supposed to
|conform.
|u/appogiatura - 1 day
|
|All I can add is that when I got a CPAP my doctor removed my ADHD
|diagnosis. In the case I still have it, symptoms are significantly more
|manageable and we were able to focus on anxiety/ocd instead and Prozac
|helped.
|u/jonathot12 - 1 day
|
|thanks for sharing. i’m of the opinion that my ADHD is likely 90% due
|to my rare form of sleep apnea (catathrenia) causing essentially long
|term sustained mental fatigue, which of course destroys executive
|function over time. i’m waiting on a sleep study in december, but i am
|holding out hope that getting a CPAP will eventually lead to my
|diagnosis being revoked too. which would be lovely. i think people
|often forget that these diagnoses are based on symptomology and not
|etiology and therefore could be caused by a variety of factors likely
|more impactful than just genes. my lack of self-discipline was another
|factor, and since i’ve tried treating that meaningfully, my symptoms
|have reduced. there’s more to the constellation of symptoms that make
|up ADHD than most ‘neurology-narrow’ or ‘biological-determinist’
|laymen want to admit.
|u/appogiatura - 1 day
|
|Other thing I’ll add is if you don’t wanna wait until December,
|Lofta has sleep tests if you don’t mind paying $200 out of pocket.
|Get the CPAP in about a week, two tops.
|u/jonathot12 - 1 day
|
|that’s nice, thanks. mine is three weeks away so i’ll probably
|hold out but that’s good to know for if they cancel on me again
|like they did for my august study. appreciate it!
|u/MediocrePotato44 - 1 day
|
|I had a sleep study done because unless I get 11-12 hours of sleep a
|night, I’m exhausted. 7-8 houses might as well be 4. They were so sure
|it was sleep apnea and not messed up sleep stages but nope, they were
|wrong. A whole lot of money wasted for an uncomfortable night of sleep
|and a prescription that at least helps get me to sleep but doesn’t
|help me require less sleep. I live chronically exhausted because I
|can’t sleep as much as I need to.
|u/Archinatic - 1 day
|
|Did they check for RDI/consider UARS? There is so much wrong with
|how sleep disordered breathing is diagnosed even when they say you
|don't have it you might very well still have it.
|u/cat-cash - 1 day
|
|I firmly believe that if I didn’t have insomnia, I wouldn’t have ADHD.
|It’s not even the lack of sleep, but I feel like the part of my brain
|that is responsible for sleep is just broken. Like, even if sleeping
|pills worked for me, it wouldn’t matter because it wouldn’t fix the
|underlying issue and that issue is also the one that makes me a spaz.
|u/starion832000 - 1 day
|
|As as adult with ADHD and severe insomnia I have always wondered what
|the connection was. It's not just that I don't get sleepy... Ever.. I
|also don't get tired or fatigued. I have absolutely endless energy when
|I want to. I'm 45 but there's no amount of heavy labor that makes my
|body tired. I'm not claiming to be in good shape.. no. I'm just saying
|that what makes a normal person eventually slow down just doesn't happen
|to me. It sounds great, but honestly I just want to fall asleep.
|u/TableTopFarmer - 1 day
|
|I have a 15;00 sleep aid device that looks like a watch. It uses
|pulsed emissions to trigger the natural release of melatonin. It works
|well. Walmart carries them but ther are more expensive devices on
|Amazon
|u/NonConRon - 1 day
|
|Huh? Pulses you say? Tell us more.
|u/mthlmw - 1 day
|
|That's really interesting! My psych suggested I take 5-HTP before bed
|for sleep issues (after starting atomoxetine), since it's a precursor to
|serotonin and might increase my energy in the morning. Looks like
|serotonin is **also** a precursor to melatonin, so I'm taking a
|supplement for that too!
|u/5ftpinky - 1 day
|
|This is so interesting. I've never heard of 5-HTP but I'm tempted to
|try it. >Looks like serotonin is also a precursor to melatonin, so
|I'm taking a supplement for that too! Do you mean that you're also
|taking melatonin? It continues to amaze me everytime i learn about
|the body's interconnectedness. It's never just one thing.
|u/mthlmw - 1 day
|
|No, just the 5-HTP, but I never realized the one thing turned into
|multiple others haha.
|u/321gogo - 1 day
|
|This makes a lot of sense for me. The “tired”feeling I get when I take
|melatonin is really something I almost never feel without it.
|u/iamDa3dalus - 1 day
|
|Melatonin makes it so hard for me to wake up. Even a tiny amount. Like
|lead.
|u/FroggyCrossing - 1 day
|
|I'm pale and have ADHD someone ELI5 for me please Edit: Im now reading
|it's melatonin and not melanin...
|u/StrawberryKiss2559 - 1 day
|
|Is this why I’ve always been a night owl?
|u/U_Kitten_Me - 2 days
|
|Hm, interesting. I have ADHD and always suspected I might have some kind
|of genetic issue with melatonin, because I - as well as my father and
|grandmother - have always had seasonal depression.
|u/zorionora - 1 day
|
|Hi, same. Could you elaborate on link between melatonin and seasonal
|depression ?
|u/U_Kitten_Me - 1 day
|
|Hey fellow winter blueser. I haven't looked into this stuff for a
|few years but from what I remember, seasonal depression is strongly
|linked to melatonin. I guess back in prehistoric times this was
|supposed to signal us to go into it caves and go into low energy
|consumption mode or something. Some of us today just have this more
|than others (well, and more melatonin) and have to pull through the
|season while our energy is holding us back all the time... This is
|also why therapy lamps help a lot of people with seasonal
|depression: They reduce the melatonin. (Didn't seem to help me for
|whatever reason, though). You may want to read up on agomelatine.
|Sounds promising. Good luck!
|u/zorionora - 1 day
|
|Thank you for responding. It feels like some missing puzzle pieces
|are coming together, possibly. Will look into agomelatine.
|u/accordyceps - 1 day
|
|I don’t have ADHD but autism, and also had insomnia as a young child
|(would stare at the ceiling for hours after being put to bed) and into
|adulthood. I wonder if there are any links to autism and melatonin
|regulation, as well. Looks like it:
|https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?title=The+serotonin-N-acetylse
|rotonin–melatonin+pathway+as+a+biomarker+for+autism+spectrum+disorders&a
|uthor=Pagan,+C.&author=Delorme,+R.&author=Callebert,+J.&author=Goubran-B
|otros,+H.&author=Amsellem,+F.&author=Drouot,+X.&author=Boudebesse,+C.&au
|thor=Le+Dudal,+K.&author=Ngo-Nguyen,+N.&author=Laouamri,+H.&publication_
|year=2014&journal=Transl.+Psychiatry&volume=4&pages=479&doi=10.1038/tp.2
|014.120&pmid=25386956#d=gs_qabs&t=1731747774430&u=%23p%3DcvUgh-HeIloJ
|u/nomad1128 - 1 day
|
|I try testing out if I'm telepathic at night. If any of you have been
|telepathically Karate Kid Kicked randomly while you're falling asleep,
|it was me. You're welcome, and thank you for helping me fall asleep.
|u/HairyNutsack69 - 1 day
|
|I feel like we been knowing
|